"Oh Shit! ... GMO Food Sterilizes People ... And It's Really A Form of Population Control?"
"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."
Alexander King, Bertrand Schneider - founder Club of Rome - The First Global Revolution, pp.104-105
"In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill ... All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."
GET A CHICK...
Were We All Kunta Kinte? Or Are We Also Mansa Musa?
Barry Goldwater 1909-1998
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. "
The Honorable Elijah Muhammad
"It Is Easier To Change A Man's Religion Than It Is To Change His Diet"
Private Prison Industry
2,000,000 human beings in American prisons and counting
IS THIS LITTLE GUY A PERSON?
The founders of the American state understood that the proper functioning of a democracy required an educated electorate. It is this understanding that justifies a system of public education and that led slaveholders to resist the spread of literacy among their chattels. But the meaning of "educated" has changed beyond recognition in two hundred years. Reading, writing, and arithmetic are no longer sufficient to decide on public policy. Now we need quantum mechanics and molecular biology. The knowledge required for political rationality, once available to the masses, is now in the possession of a specially educated elite, a situation that creates a series of tensions and contradictions in the operation of representative democracy.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. P
"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."
Louis Pasteur
"The Microbe is nothing. The terrain is everything."
Beverly Johnson. Beverly Hills. 1978
"Bra! Tell Me About It!"
"Most of the trouble I have had in advancing the cause of the race has come from Negroes."
Ted Turner - CNN founder and UN supporter - quoted in the The McAlvany Intelligence Advisor, June '
"A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal."
Lord Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science On Society (Routledge Press: New York, 1951).
"At present the population of the world is increasing at about 58,000 per diem. War, so far, has had no very great effect on this increase, which continued throughout each of the world wars.. War has hitherto been disappointing in this respect, but perhaps bacteriological war may prove effective. If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it?"
Denmark Vesey For President 08
1. Troops Out Of Iraq Immediately. Like By Monday. 2. Money Owed To Haliburton and War Contractors Be Given Directly To The Iraqi People 3. Complete Electoral Reform 4. No Corporate Conglomerate Will Be Allowed To Control More Than 5% Of News Market 5. Federal Reserve Abolished 6. For-Profit Prison Industry Abolished
*George Orwell (1903-1950) English novelist, critic
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness... If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... The great enemy of clear language is insincerity... The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it... To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle... For a creative writer possession of the truth is less important than emotional sincerity.
“The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society will be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values.” – Zbigniew Brzezinski
God Don't Make No Mistakes
Gordon Parks 1912-2006
"I suffered evils, but without allowing them to rob me of the freedom to expand."
Great Grandmother Harris
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25 comments:
nicely done.
Craig,
Sorry, working on an abstract that's due in about 10 days, and just found out my med student has shirked his duties, so I won't be able to squeeze in more than a couple of comments.
"Please differentiate between consciousness and intelligence?"
Consciousness is an all or none. A being is either aware of it's existence and the outside environment or it is not. For example, fetus born with no brain is not aware of it's existence and I would say it is not conscious. Reflexes would make it seem to respond to "painful" stimuli, but this is merely receptor-ligand binding, as there's nothing to process the stimuli into something meaningful. (let's agree that we are discussing the philosophical meaning of the word and not what my anesthesia colleagues deal with, and I'll try not to boil everything down to what's really going on which is complex biochemistry). I don't believe a being has to reach the threshold of cogito ergo sum to be conscious. Do squirrels waste time pondering their existence? I'm certain my dog is conscious. I'm not Descartes, or Kirkegaard, so you won't be getting a graduate thesis.
After what I've witnessed at this particular blog, I'm tempted to say that intelligence is an all or none phenomena. There's really no one consensus on a definition. I believe intelligence includes, but is not limited to a beings ability to understand external information, process, adapt, learn, and problem solve. Animal species have variable capacity to carry out such things.
"Is IBM's Jeopardy winning super-computer Watson either intelligent or conscious?"
I didn't watch jeopardy, but from what I understand Watson has not demonstrated that he's more than the sum of his programming. It has a vast amount of information that can be processed efficiently and quickly, but I'd be careful about calling it intelligent, and I'd definitely say that it isn't conscious. If it demonstrated creativity beyond it's programming and the ability to surpass it's programming I might reconsider it's intelligence. Nothing from what I've read and briefly watched online would suggest to me that Watson realizes that it is Watson.
Is a super-colony of leaf-cutter ants either intelligent or conscious? They are both. The leaf cutter ants fit the above criteria for intelligence. There's some question of whether they are individually or collectively conscious (whatever that means). I have heard of some ant species have been known to take other types of ants as "slaves", so that tells me there's a recognition not only of self, but also non-self.
White blood cells on the other hand are neither. If you know anything about immunology you've heard that certain T-cells have the ability of "recognizing" self and non-self. This isn't intelligence or consciousness, but rather receptor-ligand binding and subsequent downstream processes (again I won't talk about how all of this boils down to biochemistry anyway).
If this is going to devolve into some metaphysical, or long winded wordplay, let me know so I can not bother.
I didn't watch jeopardy, but from what I understand Watson has not demonstrated that he's more than the sum of his programming. It has a vast amount of information that can be processed efficiently and quickly, but I'd be careful about calling it intelligent, and I'd definitely say that it isn't conscious. If it demonstrated creativity beyond it's programming and the ability to surpass it's programming I might reconsider it's intelligence. Nothing from what I've read and briefly watched online would suggest to me that Watson realizes that it is Watson.
Watson is the state of the programmer's art in language-parsing metadata, i.e., it "knows" what it "knows".
Watson is of course, not self-aware, or for that matter, aware of anything at all.
Watson "knows" about language with access to a vast store of language data.
Watson is capable of responding very intelligently to linguistic inputs.
Watson is a highly intelligent language processing system.
Vastly more intelligent than its humans.
Within the language-parsing domain.
I don't believe a being has to reach the threshold of cogito ergo sum to be conscious. Do squirrels waste time pondering their existence? I'm certain my dog is conscious.
lol,
Cogito ergo sum - could better be translated "I have language - and know it - therefore I am"
What does your dog or those squirrels have as a metaphor for "self"?
Your dog and those squirrels have no language, right?
Why do you think/believe your dog has an "I"?
Does the dog have "feelings"?
I believe intelligence includes, but is not limited to a beings ability to understand external information, process, adapt, learn, and problem solve. Animal species have variable capacity to carry out such things.
Intelligence is a measure of metadata "efficiency".
Human systems/machines have language-based metadata.
Do you think/believe all living things have metadata?
Is a super-colony of leaf-cutter ants either intelligent or conscious? They are both. The leaf cutter ants fit the above criteria for intelligence. There's some question of whether they are individually or collectively conscious (whatever that means). I have heard of some ant species have been known to take other types of ants as "slaves", so that tells me there's a recognition not only of self, but also non-self.
They are both.
There's some question of whether they are individually or collectively conscious (whatever that means)
Whatever that means?
It means they're like your dog homey, but A WHOLE LOT MORE OF IT, right?
Cause your dog can't build climate controlled homeostatic megastructures, do fungal agriculture, wage war, take slaves, and do all that other haplodiploidy supercolony shyte, right?
Dog ain't nothin but a furry, barking crap factory by comparison with these ants.
{I'm playing with you man, in good natured jest, please don't get upset}
I bet you KNOW your dog is more conscious than any them damn ants, right?
Are there non-language-based systems of data representation?
Can intelligence exist in the absence of representations?
Can intelligence exist in the absence of language?
Is metadata a prerequisite for consciousness?
White blood cells on the other hand are neither. If you know anything about immunology you've heard that certain T-cells have the ability of "recognizing" self and non-self. This isn't intelligence or consciousness, but rather receptor-ligand binding and subsequent downstream processes
How you know?
It's metadata in action isn't it?
It's structured, intelligent behavior in response to representational information, right?
(some form of signalling (REPRESENTATIONS) are actively transmitted by individual white blood cells or other cellular systems to produce the quorum effects observed in the aggregate, right?
If this is going to devolve into some metaphysical, or long winded wordplay, let me know so I can not bother.
You agreed to being interviewed. That means I get to ask you some questions about what you think/believe, cool?
Consciousness is an all or none. A being is either aware of it's existence and the outside environment or it is not.
Does it emerge from the interaction of multiple "intelligent" but not necessarily 'conscious" sub-systems?
Is consciousness metadata about metadata?
"Vastly more intelligent than its humans. Within the language-parsing domain."
I would have to disagree with this. I don't see that as intelligence, that's just how quickly it can access data already stored. I suppose it's a minor point.
Language is not a prerequisite for consciousness. Would you say a deaf, dumb, and blind kid (other than playing a mean game of pinball) was not conscious until he had a workable language with which to communicate. My dog is aware it exists, he knows how to get me to take him for a walk, and how to communicate that he wants food or to play. Of course the dog has feelings. The only difference between my dog and you is that you are more intelligent (from a human standpoint). If you and he were lost in the Siberian tundra, he'd have be more intelligent, as he'd be able to use his superior sense of smell for instance to interpret clues for where to find food and not die. Context. Philosophy is useless in that situation.
"Intelligence is a measure of metadata "efficiency" "
That's too simplistic. That's like saying the hard drive on my MacBook Pro is "more intelligent" than my 5 year old desktop pc, because I can access the harddrive faster.
About collective consciousness and leaf-cutter ants, again I think you are being too simple to just extrapolate individual consciousness to what is sometimes thought of as a "collective consciousness" of leaf-cutter ants. It's not just a matter of scale. A pack of wolves can work together to take down prey for mutual benefit. I believe the ants are exhibiting something more than cooperation.
My dog, and his cousin wolves don't need to build homeostatic megastructures or do fungal agriculture. They do wage war, and take over packs.
It seems you want to make a quality comparison between ants and canines. These are not comparable. My dog need only to step on queen, shit down the whole of the colony, then gallop away to chase a tennis ball to squash all that.
"I bet you KNOW your dog is more conscious than any of theme damn ants, right?"
Maybe you missed one of my first sentences. There are no gradations of consciousness. A being can't be more conscious than another. It either is or it isn't. I believe the ants are conscious....I just don't know the details about "collective consciousness" and what it entails.
continued
"Are there non-language-based systems of data representation?
Can intelligence exist in the absence of language?"
Why are you asking? The answer is of course. I think I already mentioned that.
"Can intelligence exist in the absence of representations?
Hmmm, interesting question I'm not sure I'll have to think about it. Are you saying lacking the ability to receive any input at all or are you saying having the ability but in a total input desert?
"How do you know" Other than observing the process and outcome?
About T-cells, no this is NOT intelligent behavior. The individual T-cell follows a biochemical trail until it bumps into something that activates certain receptors on it's cell surface...which leads downstream activation of a "response". The T-cell isn't "aware" of its existence.
I agreed to be interviewed. I didn't say I had to participate further in the discussion. Not interested in a long winded simply to look for "gotcha" points, as this isn't a topic of my choosing.
"Does it emerge from the interaction of multiple "intelligent" but not necessarily 'conscious' sub-systems?"
You mean like Skynet or the Borg?
LOL No, I wouldn't go that far to suggest that. I'm not a computer science guy. I can only think of such situations in the context of science fiction. But then again I don't know what's on the horizon with regard to computer science principles. But maybe you are trying to get at the question of "are we more than just our biochemical programming", or maybe you are looking for the idea of a soul? I don't think anyone has answered that question to any satisfaction.
"Is consciousness metadata about metadata"
Is consciousness data about data about data about data?? I don't know where you are going with this.
I don't think consciousness relies on intelligence. An earthworm has a rudimentary sense of itself in the context of the world around it, and is conscious. Not sure about the converse. I'll have to think about that some more.
I would have to disagree with this. I don't see that as intelligence, that's just how quickly it can access data already stored. I suppose it's a minor point.
Not a minor point at all.
This is a crucial point Doc.
So we need to tighten up our terms, else risk a complete loss of signalling fidelity.
To get away from language parsing for a sec, what was being exhibited when Deep Blue crushed Gary Kasparov?
What did Kasparov say about what was being exhibited?
My dog is aware it exists, he knows how to get me to take him for a walk, and how to communicate that he wants food or to play.
You failed my careful reflection/introspection assessment Doc.
Your dog has rudimentary "language".
It doesn't verbalize of course, however, it responds to the name you've given it and probably to a small assortment of verbal commands.
{There's a reason these canine crap factories have become long-term human symbionts.}
Of course the dog has feelings. The only difference between my dog and you is that you are more intelligent (from a human standpoint).
lol,
The dog is a product of selective breeding incapable of further self-directed development.
The difference between a garden variety human being and your dog is of cosmic proportions.
The difference between a highly developed human being and your dog....,
If you and he were lost in the Siberian tundra.
He would provide me with a modest harvest of meat and fur...,
"Intelligence is a measure of metadata "efficiency"
That's too simplistic. That's like saying the hard drive on my MacBook Pro is "more intelligent" than my 5 year old desktop pc, because I can access the harddrive faster.
Your understanding of what I wrote is too simplistic.
Metadata is media agnostic.
Has nothing whatsoever to do with the speed of the underlying media on which data is "written", has to do with the structures by which large quantities of data are represented and the logical and generative operations that can be performed by/with/on those structures.
Contemporary formal logic is a beast Doc, that's why it's mostly done by physicists nowadays...,
About collective consciousness and leaf-cutter ants, again I think you are being too simple to just extrapolate individual consciousness to what is sometimes thought of as a "collective consciousness" of leaf-cutter ants.
I didn't extrapolate anything to anything.
I asked you a series of questions concerning what you think/believe is going on with those ants.
It's not just a matter of scale. A pack of wolves can work together to take down prey for mutual benefit. I believe the ants are exhibiting something more than cooperation.
I do too.
But in the interest of parsimony and precision, I wouldn't dare qualify it as anything more than stigmergy, much as I did with those white blood cells you invoked.
I indicated that the ants are capable of vastly more than your dog.
It seems you want to make a quality comparison between ants and canines. These are not comparable. My dog need only to step on queen, shit down the whole of the colony, then gallop away to chase a tennis ball to squash all that.
I didn't qualify the ant supercolony's activity as conscious.
I didn't qualify an individual ant as conscious.
I did qualify the supercolony's activity as very highly intelligent.
If asked to actually qualify;
Next to humans, leafcutter ants form the largest and most complex animal societies on Earth.
Far simpler than leaf cutter ant colonies are trivially capable of destroying the largest conceivable wolf packs.
Far lesser species than the supercolonizing leaf cutter are trivially capable of running through canine packs the way Ulysses Grant ran through Richmond VA.
Something about the metadata structure of ant supercolonies is VASTLY more intelligent than the social organization of individually more intelligent and more conscious canines.
Much like Watson - and before Watson Deep Blue - showed intelligence far exceeding that of a human player.
Maybe you missed one of my first sentences. There are no gradations of consciousness. A being can't be more conscious than another. It either is or it isn't. I believe the ants are conscious....I just don't know the details about "collective consciousness" and what it entails.
lol,
I didn't miss it.
I ignored it because it's preposterous.
Ants are NOT conscious.
Ant colonies are NOT conscious.
They are, however, because of how they're organized and how they signal, vastly more intelligent than every other social species comprised of individually "more conscious" representative animals.
About T-cells, no this is NOT intelligent behavior. The individual T-cell follows a biochemical trail until it bumps into something that activates certain receptors on it's cell surface...which leads downstream activation of a "response". The T-cell isn't "aware" of its existence.
It's stigmergy.
I agreed to be interviewed. I didn't say I had to participate further in the discussion. Not interested in a long winded simply to look for "gotcha" points, as this isn't a topic of my choosing.
lol,
GCV was on the mark about your "grouchiness"...,
"Is consciousness metadata about metadata"
Is consciousness data about data about data about data?? I don't know where you are going with this.
Just working out a basic lexicon so we don't talk past one another.
So far we've got stigmergy, metadata, intelligence, and consciousness in play.
I don't think consciousness relies on intelligence. An earthworm has a rudimentary sense of itself in the context of the world around it, and is conscious. Not sure about the converse. I'll have to think about that some more.
Intelligence doesn't require consciousness.
Do think about the converse a bit more, because it's the real important crossroads.
"You failed my careful reflection/introspection assessment Doc."
I don't think I failed it, I just don't consider it language. But maybe we do need to tighten up definitions. Let's skip this one because it would be a long tangent.
"The difference between a garden variety human being and your dog is of cosmic proportions."
This is where we will disagree. I don't believe humans are special beyond our higher intellect and opposable thumbs. Ever watch an animal protect it's young? Animals display a wide range of personality, emotion and individuality.
"The dog is a product of selective breeding incapable of further self-directed development."
I suppose that depends on what you mean by development.
"He would provide me with a modest harvest of meat and fur...,"
Absent clothing, and weapon you probably wouldn't catch him on the ice--or survive the first night, but that's beside the point. He on the other hand would be able to sniff out food in places you wouldn't think to look, dig an ice cave to escape those nasty high winds--for which his undercoat is well suited, smell predators from a far distance and survive til spring--occasionally nibbling on pieces of your frozen carcass. And just so you know--plasma freezes at minus 0.54 degrees celsius. Hope you are hairy. :) My dog's intelligence is suited for survival in that climate. Crossing a busy street in New York--advantage CNu.
Metadata--yeah, sounds interesting. I think you are boiling intelligence down to one sort of "intelligence"- the accessing of bits of data. I'm sure you'll educate me in due time.
About collective consciousness. I didn't catch it the first time around, but in your explanation of how leaf-cutter ants are collectively conscious, you gave an explanation of how they are supposedly more intelligent. Building a climate controlled anything has nothing to do with consciousness. A being either is or it ain't conscious. I maintain my opinion.
Stigmergy may seem analogous to white blood cell interactions with epitopes it's ancestors have previously encountered, but you can't make a direct comparison, as the systems are different by orders of magnitude and ants are far more complex. Interesting, thanks.
Not grouchy, just not as interested in this topic as you are. I'm being a good sport.
I think stigmergy can be tossed out. I don't see how following biochemical signals laid out on the ground will advance our conversation of intelligence and consciousness...which really started out as a discussion of the latter.
Deep Blue, and Watson. I think we are talking past each other here. Both can access stored data more efficiently and quicker than a human with a certain set of rules.
Can it devise and tell a joke?
Craig,
The only way one can see all the parts and the whole "simultaneously" in this unfolding our conscious recognition of ant intelligence is to grasp the ant's orientation. Only when we can say where the ant is going (to build his colony) can we speak of any intelligence.
And so it is with Watson. What is Watson's orientation? Where is Watson going? Only when we know this can we make meaningful conclusions in regards to Watson's intelligence and consciousness.
"The dog is a product of selective breeding incapable of further self-directed development."
I suppose that depends on what you mean by development.
No it doesn't.
Dog's will never speak, write, or manufacture anything.
Just Darwinian two-brained machines with feelings mapped over instincts and guts - and the barest and most rudimentary stretch or auditory representation from social sound-making which yields the capacity to recognize very basic units of human speech.
No memes, no temes, just human selectively-bred genes.
Ain't nothin else gone jump off in the species canis outside what we elect to do for them.
I don't believe humans are special beyond our higher intellect and opposable thumbs.
Humans have generative grammar
There's something unique, fundamental, and not entirely computable about language and its representational subset mathematics.
I find the gospel notion that "In the beginning was the Word" EXTRAORDINARILY sophisticated and insightful.
In principio erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum...
Ever watch an animal protect it's young? Animals display a wide range of personality, emotion and individuality.
Sure they do.
But scientists must be wary of anthropormorphizing mammalian vertebrate commonalities.
Absent clothing, and weapon
lol,
I'd quickly make a bounteous harvest of meat for your exponentially better-adapted companion.
I think you are boiling intelligence down to one sort of "intelligence"- the accessing of bits of data.
Oh, it's not bits.
It's complex operations over complex underlying structures
We reduce such data and operations to bits - solely for the purpose of being able to instantiate them on binary state circuits configurable via logic gates.
That reference frame and mode of expression is an unfortunate artifact of the technology available to us for building our first electromechanical Turing Machines.
How do you think RNA and DNA rate as "Turing Machines" - in terms of complexity and generativity?
About collective consciousness. I didn't catch it the first time around, but in your explanation of how leaf-cutter ants are collectively conscious, you gave an explanation of how they are supposedly more intelligent. Building a climate controlled anything has nothing to do with consciousness. A being either is or it ain't conscious. I maintain my opinion.
I hope you realize that the level of inexactitude you tolerate in this specific area is precisely equivalent to the fuzzy inexactitude that you aggressively despise in those afflicted with the neurobiological sickness of magical-thinking religion.
One of my objectives for this interview was bringing you round to that disclosure, whether you now elect to acknowledge it, or not.
I'm being a good sport.
I appreciate that fact.
Thanks for playing along
Deep Blue, and Watson. I think we are talking past each other here. Both can access stored data more efficiently and quicker than a human with a certain set of rules.
Can it devise and tell a joke?
I'd be astonished if Watson couldn't devise multiple classes of "jokes". If you're not familiar with the concept of generative grammar, i.e., the capacity to produce novel syntactically correct strings - do marinate on it at greater length.
There's something very fundamental about generativity at the level of language and generativity at the genetic level, as well - particularly among those DNA systems unconstrained by burdens and limitations of sexual reproduction.
Speaking of which, what is the biological purpose of laughter, and to your knowledge, do any other mammalian vertebrates exhibit laughing behavior?
"Dog's will never speak, write, or manufacture anything."
And neither would Stephen Hawking ever again had he been a citizen of Sierral Leone when he became ill. Neither will children with certain congenital anomalies. Speaking, writing or manufacturing is not the yardstick to which intelligence should be measured.. These are typically human endeavors. Language didn't appear until about 100,000 years ago, writing, is relatively recent, and there are still groups of humans that don't write. Manufacturing even more recent.
So, you probably would have said the same thing of our ancestors prior to 170,000 years ago. Dogs communicate. Dogs form social structures, with complex rules. Neither of us will be around to see what Darwin has in store my dogs offspring eons from now.
You believe that humans are some how special in the animal kingdom....you aren't going to get all Genesis on me now are you? Craig, you are a racist (and the strict sense of the term--and I'm sure you are one of a few on here who will get my meaning), but please don't burn doggy collars on my lawn....
I don't really care that humans have grammar or opposable thumbs or can do complex math. When you get right down to it, we are also "just Darwinian two-brained machines with feelings mapped over instincts and guts".
My dog (and probably a few wolves) would sit off in a distance comfortable in that wonderful dense two layer coat, yawning and waiting for you to get so cold that you forget how to work your legs, howl for the pack, and make a short meal of you. My point is context. Your extraordinary writing skills are useless when navigating the Amazon, your extraordinary strength is useless in aerial combat, etc.
"I hope you realize that the level of inexactitude...."
ME? You completely BS'd that answer! I think you are wrong. I have yet to define collective consciousness, and in my first post, I said I was unsure of it's existence. It is an interesting concept regarding insects, but I'm not convinced, nor do I have experience in the cognitive abilities of insects. Those "afflicted" would have made something up, or cited a random blog. So, I think you need to retract that statement.
You are approaching this topic from a firmly human position. If the creature doesn't meet the standards of human, then it's not conscious or intelligent. I happen to disagree.
Magical thinking? No. I've given you an opinion on a subject in which I have little interest, or experience. I was quite conservative with my assertions, and made no grand statements.
About Watson telling a joke. I'm not talking about the mere formula of a joke. Could it replace Chappelle, Pryor, Murphy, etc? I'm talking about creativity, which is more than getting the formula correct. Anybody can cook...what makes a chef? And as you very well know formulaic music permeates our radio waves (and some of it just might be the offspring of Lil Watson...).
I don't think there is a purpose to laughter. Why should there be. There's not even a purpose to life, other than what we manufacture in our own minds.
I'm sure there is an animal equivalent. Cat's purr when satisfied, or hiss when angry or fearful. Maybe not?
Let's recap. My opinion's are:
1. Consciousness is all or none. Earthworms are questionable.
2. Intelligence. The traditional definition may be too narrow. The entire emphasis is on intellectual (in the traditional sense) ability and accessing huge volumes of data quickly and in proper sequence. I've been intrigued (but not yet convinced) by the concept of multiple forms of intelligence.
"Dog's will never speak, write, or manufacture anything."
And neither would Stephen Hawking ever again had he been a citizen of Sierral Leone when he became ill. Neither will children with certain congenital anomalies. Speaking, writing or manufacturing is not the yardstick to which intelligence should be measured..
lol,
There IS no other yardstick Doc.
We have culture.
We are the only "animal" with the full complement of genes, memes, and temes.
Those memes and temes comprise an extended phenotype
These are typically human endeavors.I don't really care that humans have grammar or opposable thumbs or can do complex math. When you get right down to it, we are also "just Darwinian two-brained machines with feelings mapped over instincts and guts".
lol,
"when you get right down to it"?
Sadly, when you scrutinize the degenerate and barbarous condition of what passes for the mental lives of most people, it's difficult and depressing to realize that most humans operate at the level of two-brained animals.
By default, humans are three-brained - with all the developmental possibilities that that fact entails.
Unlike animals, human beings capable of knowing what we know.
Unlike animals, human beings can correct phenotypic defects.
Unilike animals, human beings can learn, develop, and transmit information. (Pandoran species)
Unlike animals, human beings can know and transcend the limitations of both phenotype and even extended phenotype.
Given right effort.
"I hope you realize that the level of inexactitude...."
ME? You completely BS'd that answer! I think you are wrong. I have yet to define collective consciousness, and in my first post, I said I was unsure of it's existence. It is an interesting concept regarding insects, but I'm not convinced, nor do I have experience in the cognitive abilities of insects. Those "afflicted" would have made something up, or cited a random blog. So, I think you need to retract that statement.
lol,
Not likely.
I started out from the following premise; DMG, even though you routinely work with patients whose consciousness is fully ablated, and, even though your work routinely exposes you to the most extreme variety of emotional highs and lows imaginable - and even though you have years of direct subjective experience with some range of the phenomenon itself - I suspect you don't know enough about consciousness to fill a thimble.
You have confirmed the correctness of that guess.
You have stated; Magical thinking? No. I've given you an opinion on a subject in which I have little interest, or experience. I was quite conservative with my assertions, and made no grand statements.
(not a criticism, it is what it is, you have stated that you have little to interest in the subject)
You are approaching this topic from a firmly human position. If the creature doesn't meet the standards of human, then it's not conscious or intelligent. I happen to disagree.
I've actually brought you to a fairly simple, universal, and exacting criterion - generative or novelty producing.
I don't know if you'd considered it in those exact terms before, but there's really not much to disagree with on that topic.
Either an organism or a machine is capable of generative productions or its not - and see - I didn't need to invoke the danger words "intelligence" or "consciousness" - though generativity tells us something meaningful about the limits of the former and the probability of the latter.
1. Consciousness is all or none.
Three-brained?
Earthworms are questionable.
One-brained? (guts no feelings?)
2. Intelligence. The traditional definition may be too narrow. The entire emphasis is on intellectual (in the traditional sense) ability and accessing huge volumes of data quickly and in proper sequence. I've been intrigued (but not yet convinced) by the concept of multiple forms of intelligence.
I could question you further, but I think we've reached the limits of what you presently know or have previously considered.
I hope that this weekend's quick visit to these outer limits points up some areas of further possible inquiry.
Thank you for humoring me.
There's not even a purpose to life, other than what we manufacture in our own minds.
bears repeating...,
"We have culture.
We are the only "animal" with the full complement of genes, memes, and temes."
So?
What we call culture is just shared group behaviors. Not dissimilar to a pack of wolves or a pride of lions. We've just made it more complex.
""just Darwinian two-brained machines with feelings mapped over instincts and guts".
Actually, I just took your quote wholly to make a point.
"Unlike..."
These things make humans vastly more intelligent, and I say "so what"? Humans are animals. You need only look at how closely we are genetically.
"You have confirmed the correctness of that guess"
Again, if you say so, Craig. About those "limits"...I'm really just not that interested to put in more effort, and I'm just not making such a big deal out of consciousness as as you are.
When it comes right down to it...it's all biochemistry. End of story. There's noting more mystical. You can call it what you want, talk about how vastly more complex we humans are, etc, etc, etc. We are part of the animal kingdom. We evolved from the same clump of cells. Why you want to separate us, is beyond me. It's not unlike the arguments about a supernatural god. Would you elevate humans to that level over "the beasts of the field"? There is nothing special about consciousness, other than a philosophical exercise, or from the view of neuroscience. We are unique in that we've a more developed intelligence...for what we need to survive and thrive on this planet. We had to be smarter--it wasn't long ago that we weren't very high up on the food chain. I'm going to end this paragraph the way it began. When it comes right down to it...it's all biochemistry. End of story.
lol,
ain't try'na convince you of anything dood - just try'na take a snapshot - make sure I didn't miss anything;
When it comes right down to it...it's all biochemistry.
What we call culture is just shared group behaviors.
We've just made it more complex.
These things make humans vastly more intelligent, and I say "so what"?
Humans are animals.
You need only look at how closely we are genetically.
I'm just not making such a big deal out of consciousness as as you are.
There is nothing special about consciousness
What we call culture is just shared group behaviors.
So? I say "so what"?
When it comes right down to it...it's all biochemistry.
End of story.
As always, I stand by my comments until proven wrong.
CNu
It seems as though you are often alluding to something (it appears to be singular), especially when you speak of the Alhazin/consciousness - and your frustration is that no one else is catching on? I am sorry but this appears to be the sentiment.
What is it about DMG's statements that seem so out of place, it as if you are trying to repeat his words to put on him on the record as saying something incredibly insincere? What is this mystical secret about human consciousness that you are getting to?
However entertaining this dialogue has been I wonder what conclusion can be taken from it?
lol,
This interview and the Gee Chee/DMG school thread served as serendipitous opportunities to paint a picture for someone who DOES get it.
I still say there's nothing to it...but if it sparks someones interest, I'm happy to oblige.
SoloInto,
Craig is a Supremacist taking on the cover of radical autonomy. His existential state appears indeterminate to the outside world as he hides his Supremacy for very a specific reason, namely, his fear of the rise "white" Supremacy after it has been so thoroughly denigrated. Like those who anthropormorhize God, the radical autonomist mechanizes Man. And so you see a "doctor" like DMG that you believe is a doctor who "saves" lives, but because he is entirely without faith, he merely fixes broken "machines" that sometimes go on to function again.
So what you see is Craig confronting a radical autonomist (faithless doctor) and attempting to assert a supremacy that he cannot and will not speak plainly for the very fact that "mechanizing" Man is the way to subjugate him; and "mechanizing" white man is the existential goal.
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