Black is back. Black is beautiful. Black may even be the new black. Certainly Franca Sozzani, long-time editor of Vogue Italia and one of Europe's top arbiters of high fashion, gave that view an enthusiastic endorsement when she made this month's edition of her magazine the first ever "Black" issue, featuring only black models and articles about black-related subjects.
46 comments:
I think only one of those models is full-African.
Who gives a shit if they're "full African" or not?
only a chump like byrd would kick some shit like that. byrd, waddafuxup?
You think you down, and DV has pumped your head enough, being his "favorite white boy" as to where I understand why you feel that way. But occasionally, you remind us all as to who you really are.
He'll probably jump in before this thread is done to soften your words. Let's see.
is this some kind of endorsement? should black women be excited about this? Has the stateof black women improved with its publication??
is this some kind of endorsement? should black women be excited about this? Has the stateof black women improved with its publication??
only a chump like byrd would kick some shit like that.
Ouch, looks like I touched a sore spot. But, this blog must be full of chumps then, judging by the sheer number of comments addressing this delicate issue of White vs Black feminine beauty like here and here. And the stratified female hierarchal caste system created by the mixing of the 2, whereby whiter > lighter mixed > full-blooded African dark.
Now perhaps you agree with that hierarchy, perhaps you don't. But enough do and don't to make it a highly volatile issue.
And not one easily dismissed by a red herring ad hominem attack on me. :)
Big Byrd,
This isn't a delicate issue of white vs. Black. This is about BLACK. And you injected your Caucasionism into the post about widespread recognition of Black Beauty. You just couldn't let that recognition go unassauled.
DV, check your favorite white boy out. He thinks Black people and Africans are one in the same.
Dang Byrd, you had me fooled.
"unassaulted"
Anonymous said...
"is this some kind of endorsement?"
No. An acknowledgment.
"should black women be excited about this?"
If she wants to be excited.
"Has the stateof black women improved with its publication??"
The state of my black woman has improved ... but that's because of me.
Black people and Africans are one in the same
Racial Africans (not just nationals) aren't Black?
And Black ancestry =/= African ancestry?
Gee, you must got me fooled, then. Care to educate me here if neither of my assumptions here are mistaken?
"neither of my assumptions here are true"
You're off base on this, Byrd.
The fact that they aren't "full African" doesn't mean that you'd stop referring to them as "black" women.
For example, many if not most of the people who fall into the "African-American" demographic in America are not "full African" either, but that surely doesn't stop you or anyone else from referring to them as "black people".
Further, what is your point here? What argument are you making?
Is it your contention that these women shouldn't be on the cover of the "Black Models" edition of Vogue because they're aren't "full African"? ...or what do you mean?
If I may ...
Sounds like Byrd is challenging the presumption that an "Italian edition of Vogue" (The Conde Naste Corporation) is an event that should be celebrated or pedestalled as an affirmation of black beauty.
I don't know if I disagree with that challenge.
Personally, I'm celebrating the issue because they got some bad muhfuggas gracing its pages.
The fact that it's one of the most beautiful issues of a fashion magazine ever produced - speaks for itself.
Try to buy a copy.
As far as African v. Black
That's something to think about. After all, depending on how one measures - we are all from Africa.
The entire planet is populated by Africans. The various group and racial demarcations are abstract products of the imagination of megalomaniacs.
However ... we aint all black.
Excuse me as I quote myself:
"Black crosses over and claps boards.
Blimp pimps so hard it drags it's mink on the floor." DV
There's some Africans who aint particularly black.
And there a few white boys arguably more black than Harold Ford Jr.
Ergo:
The Italian Vogue is full of bad, fine, beautiful, elegant and graceful BLACK women.
And it's sold out.
That speaks for itself.
How would an all Irish issue of Vogue sell?
How about an all Jewish edition?
Global System of Black Supremacy baby.
(You get it yet Mike?)
Right, if it really was an affirmation of Black beauty, why does only 1 of the models even appear to be full-African?
It's like if SI did an issue on White hoopsters, and Larry Bird was the only full-White guy in there...with every other one only partially-White.
Then you might wonder which part of them is really the common denominator that deserves credit and is being celebrated?
Is it nappy hair? Very dark skin? Wide noses? Are the women shown here being celebrated for some of those classical African features, or celebrated for lacking them due to admixture? Notice how the only Black fro'd out there...is Snoop Dogg. Whereas every female model has her hair conked straight, pulled back or covered up. So, does that sound like celebration or hiding?
Sounds like Byrd is challenging the presumption that an "Italian edition of Vogue" is an event that should be celebrated or pedestalled as an affirmation of black beauty.
On what basis is this challenge being made though? Where is the source from whence this publishing industry iconoclasm springs?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the formula of his protest in the form of: "not full African" = "not black", ergo, celebration of "black" by Vogue is a lie—?
The legitimacy of Byrd's iconoclasm is highly suspect because the basis of his challenge is predicated on the notion of racial "pureness"; as if a "celebration" of "black beauty" can only take place if each of the models is "pure African".
Then you might wonder which part of them is really the common denominator that deserves credit and is being celebrated?
Perhaps the common denominator they share is the fact that whether or not they are "pure African", the verbal descriptor of "black" is nevertheless applied to them; such that if you saw one of them on the street, you'd say, "Look at that 'black' model."
Are the women shown here being celebrated for some of those classical African features, or celebrated for lacking them due to admixture?
This question is a false dichotomy which sprang from the soil of your original premise which was premised entirely on the basis of a notion of racial "fullness".
You assume that a "celebration of black beauty" must of necessity be a celebration of "pure African features", or its inverse, "Look how not-African they are".
It's like if SI did an issue on White hoopsters, and Larry Bird was the only full-White guy in there...with every other one only partially-White.
Suppose that one of the other white hoopsters was Tony Kukoc: Would the appearance of Tony Kukoc alongside Larry Bird in your hypothetical issue of SI be a source of confusion for you, or is Tony's Croatian visage ambiguously white enough for you to overlook the contrast?
"Suppose that one of the other white hoopsters was Tony Kukoc: Would the appearance of Tony Kukoc alongside Larry Bird in your hypothetical issue of SI be a source of confusion for you, or is Tony's Croatian visage ambiguously white enough for you to overlook the contrast?" TGC
Nice.
gray - has someone like Tracy Chapman ever been celebrated for her beauty?
If not, why not?
And would you or most men find her or her more attractive, and why? And be specific about features like hair, skintone, facial features, etc.
"Is it nappy hair? Very dark skin? Wide noses? Are the women shown here being celebrated for some of those classical African features, or celebrated for lacking them due to admixture?" Byrd
Would a magazine populated by European women be limited to women with white skin, flat asses, freckles and red hair?
I think not.
Would any woman without pale skin, a flat ass or red hair be classified as less than full-European?
Is Sophia Loren not "full European"?
gray - has someone like Tracy Chapman ever been celebrated for her beauty?
If not, why not?
And would you or most men find her or her more attractive, and why? And be specific about features like hair, skintone, facial features, etc.
You first. Answer my question about Tony Kukoc and then I'll answer the above questions.
"gray - has someone like Tracy Chapman ever been celebrated for her beauty?" Byrd
No more or no less celebrated than Ellen Degeneres.
Ok, let's put this another way:
If the top female supermodels are primarily White.
The top "White" models are full-White.
The top "Black" models are often mixed (usually part-White).
What is the common denominator here?
Are there different standards of beauty for Black & White women...or is there one? And if there's one universal one, what is it? Straight or nappy hair? Light or very dark skin? Small, thin or big noses? Old Michael Jackson or new Michael Jackson?
And yes, Sophia Loren is White. As would I say Tony Kukoc.
gray - has someone like Tracy Chapman ever been celebrated for her beauty?
My answer is in the form of a rhetorical question:
Byrd, has someone like Paula fucking Poundstone ever been celebrated for her beauty?
If not, why not?
Neither of them is celebrated for their beauty. Why not either of them, you ask? Probably for the exact same reason which owes to the fact that what is celebrated as being beautiful is subject to the whims of the various owners and advertisers into whose hands such media publications have been consolidated down to a handful. The logic is really quite simple. If you are the owner of a company that places ads in magazines your job is to see to it that your advertising executives are making good choices with regard to where to place your advertisements. Part of that process is determining which publications will have the most eyes set upon them. You're the advertising exec Byrd; you presumably want to keep your job. Do you place the company's ad in the magazine that is running the cover with Jennifer Love Huge Hewitt on it, or the one with Paula Poundstone? Do you put your ad in the King that's running the cover of Alicia Keyes, or Tracy Chapman? Again, these are largely rhetorical questions, but the logic is easy to figure out.
And would you or most men find her or her more attractive, and why?
I think the old adage that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" still has some life left in it.
The idea that I would able to speak authoritatively with regard to what "most men" would find attractive is unreasonable.
If you're asking me to take an educated guess about which of these women the average guy would go for (or try to holler at) then you've left out an important variable, which is how the guy looks and his level of self esteem. In reality, there is no "picking" involved. If the guy wasn't so sure of himself or felt that he himself was homely, then Tracy Chapman might fit nicely into his comfort zone of female approachability.
Plus there is the issue of what is meant by "most men". Most men, where? A man in Africa might think that Tracy Chapman is the hottest thing ever compared to the local women; just like toothless Cletus in the backwood Ozarks of America might think that Paula Poundstone was fine as hell compared to the local pickins.
There are only men, locally regarded.
Ahhhhh .... Byrd
You getting close.
What is the standard of beauty?
I submit there is a common denominator of beauty within the human experience.
That common denominator is at neither extreme.
The ideal common denominator for beauty (Not based on subjective "standards", but by tangible experience) is an amalgamation of feautures, textures and nose widths.
The reason millions of ... "white" ... people risk skin cancer is not to get more "tan" but to get more "BROWN".
Brown is king.
'bout my complexion actually. Yeah. I'm the standard of beauty. Me personally.
Yeah Byrd, as a young man, your boy DV flew to Scandanavia. Damn near had to fight my way off the plane. The Cocoa / Nutmeg / Cinnamon / Cacao colored complexion was like a magnet to white skin blue eyed damsels in search of a little flavor and soul.
Nah. Not African. Not white. Not European.
Brown known as black is king.
Are there different standards of beauty for Black & White women...or is there one? And if there's one universal one, what is it? Straight or nappy hair? Light or very dark skin? Small, thin or big noses? Old Michael Jackson or new Michael Jackson?
This notion of racial "fullness" causes you to want to parse meaningless individual details of physiology in order to determine a clear standard of beauty for black women.
Since you believe in the notion of "full White", why do you not also parse all of the excruciating details for determining what constitutes the most attractive features of the full-white woman?
Is there a different intra-racial standard of beauty for white women?
What makes Heidi Klum more attractive than Courtney Love? Is it straight blond hair versus frumpy blond hair? Pinkish white skin versus Casper the Ghost white skin? Small noses versus huge schnozes? Short versus tall?
Byrd, does the statement, "I'd sleep with India Ari before I'd choose to sleep with Tracy Chapman", strike you as being some sort of a riddle?
" He'll probably jump in before this thread is done to soften your words. Let's see." - Prince Wayne
" Sounds like Byrd is challenging the presumption that an "Italian edition of Vogue" (The Conde Naste Corporation) is an event that should be celebrated or pedestalled as an affirmation of black beauty." -DV
Damn I'm good. Big Brother DV to the rescue once again.
But, DV, that wasn't even close to Byrd's contention. Not even in the same strata. He knows it, so do you. One of these days you're gonna have to let your minion stand behind his own words.
" Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the formula of his protest in the form of: "not full African" = "not black", " -TGC
THIS is Byrd's contention, and we haven't gotten to the bottom of it. And instead of taking the opportunity to correct himself, he further reiterated his ingnorance here:
Right, if it really was an affirmation of Black beauty, why does only 1 of the models even appear to be full-African?
Everybody slips up, but as he continues down this path, we must consider the likelyhood that Byrd actually believes that "Not full African = Not Black"
And DV, stop coddling Byrd and allow him to defend his own positions, unless you agree with his takes. Do you?
It is evident that Byrd has a rudimentary understanding of what it means to be socially classified as black, and who falls within this classification. (I do not fault Byrd here. He saw a photo of Snoop Dogg and didn't see a Black Man.) I use "socially classified" because I am trying to steer away from a "race" or "beauty" debate, which you all have allowed Byrd to nicely shift this post into with the Tracy chapman v ellen degeners and sophia loren...all of that is irrelevent. This is not about what is perceived as beauty. It is not about the fashion industry and what they shove down our throats and tell us is beautiful. This post is about the celebration of Black Beauty..in many of its forms. And Byrd challenged that Blackness of the models used.
So Byrd, enough with the redirecting and deflecting. Instead of my telling you why these people are Black, why don't you tell me why they are NOT?
(try and do that without creating a "does race exist" debate)
Let's take full lips, a physical chracteristic associated with black people.
Does that mean that Angelina Jolie is black because she has African lips? So can she be celebrated as a white beauty?
Byrd is full of poop!
Ok, this is descending into another bottomless, Fischerian Black hole debate...
So, let me just reduce it to a simple singularity, then.
If you look at "Black & White Venn diagrams"...of course there are some intersections...
However, there's also some combined features that are essentially exclusive to either group.
Now, if you look at the first woman shown with the red hat...there is essentially no way her look could be found in a full African woman.
And that's the "problem." She is really not showcasing African beauty, but essentially serving as a loophole to showcase White features. Maybe African women are just more sensitive to this than men, since they are subjected to it more.
But meanwhile, the top White models don't "need" other races mixed in as all of their features can be found within the fully-White Venn set. Sure, this doesn't mean that every White woman is hot (many fugs), but just that all of their "most beautiful" features can be found ENTIRELY within the White Venn set.
So, is the White Venn set of features generally viewed as more beautiful? Perhaps.
But, why is that seemingly the most important question?
Or should the real question be what features are most functional?
Because, that's all Nature really cares about, ultimately. Function over form. In Nature, an obese woman is going to be superior to a hot skinny bitch in a blizzard with no food - since she has increased insulation and caloric stores to weather the storm. Pitch-black skin is going to protect against a widening ozone hole more. So, the vicious debates over looks here really only shows how we've come to overvalue them over functionality.
Ok, now back to your regular programming, folks!
I swear BirdEye gets dumber and dumber by the minute
"However, there's also some combined features that are essentially exclusive to either group."
Like what? List those features?
"Now, if you look at the first woman shown with the red hat...there is essentially no way her look could be found in a full African woman."
She's 100% African. Liya Kebede is an Ethiopian model.
"And that's the "problem." She is really not showcasing African beauty, but essentially serving as a loophole to showcase White features. Maybe African women are just more sensitive to this than men, since they are subjected to it more."
Yes she is- as stated she's Ethiopian and there are many Somalian, Ethiopian, and Eritrean females who have identical facial features.
... why not do yourself a favor and educate yourself about African more?
Oops
I meant that a bulk majority of Somalians, Ethiopians, and Eritrean females share identical facial features with Kebede.
She's 100% African. Liya Kebede is an Ethiopian model.
In agreement with previous research, a new study observes the intermediate position of Ethiopians between Sub-Saharan Africans (Negroids) and Western Eurasians (Caucasoids); genetic heterogeneity of Ethiopians is found to be the result of admixture
So, what I had meant was ancestral "racial Africans," also referred to as "Negroids," although that terms sounds archaic.
Being a border region, there has in fact been a lot of mixing going on in Ethiopia. Therefore, many locals there today are not really "100% African" due to mixing from generations ago.
Ultimately, the genes are better indicators than the geographic borders.
"Now, if you look at the first woman shown with the red hat...there is essentially no way her look could be found in a full African woman." -Byrd
She's 100% African. Liya Kebede is an Ethiopian model. -Anon
So, DV. How you gon' spin this one? How you gon' explain Byrd's continued plunge into the abyss of ignorance. You took this guy under your wing, you praise him when you agree. You also have a responsibility to drop a cyber bitch slap on his ass and remind him that his inauguration into Black Supremacy is still in its infancy. He's making you look bad.
" Now, if you look at the first woman shown with the red hat...there is essentially no way her look could be found in a full African woman."
More Smoke.
More Mirrors.
More Diversions.
You still don't get it.
Byrd, is it a mystery that the first time the word "African" entered this conversation was when YOU spit it? This post was about celebration of Black Beauty, NOT AFRICAN BEAUTY. But to your understanding, Black = full African.
DV, I partially blame you for this. You are playing the role of an enabler, not a mentor.
Again
BirdEye is stuck on stupid.
BirdEye stated earlier-
"Black people and Africans are one in the same
Racial Africans (not just nationals) aren't Black?
And Black ancestry =/= African ancestry?
...neither of my assumptions here are true"
and
"Right, if it really was an affirmation of Black beauty, why does only 1 of the models even appear to be full-African?"
and
"Now, if you look at the first woman shown with the red hat...there is essentially no way her look could be found in a full African woman."
When clearly proven wrong he revises his original statement (too much pride to admit that he was flat out wrong about Kebede not being a full African" women) and states- "So, what I had meant was ancestral "racial Africans," also referred to as "Negroids," although that terms sounds archaic."
So BirdEye goes from using the term African to black to finally settling upon the term Negroid (along the way he clearly confuses himself).
So then PLEASE provide the objective characteristics of a full blown (meaning 100%) Negroid person. What are these absolute characteristics???
BirdEye states- "Right, if it really was an affirmation of Black beauty, why does only 1 of the models even appear to be full-African?"
and then
"Ultimately, the genes are better indicators than the geographic borders."
..really can you get any dumber?
I find it comical that Byrdeye gets so much crap for making comments that are barely distinguishable from those who give DV crap over giving props to "light-skinned" women, tell DV he doesn't really like Black women because he puts up photos of "light-skinned" women, etc.
DV put up a post a few weeks ago called "God Don't Make No Mistakes" and Black folks sat around nitpicking about whether the women were really Black, etc., etc.
DV, please repost the music video of Ayo so we can witness the duplicity of those who jump down Byrdeye's throat while engaging in the same nitpicking over skin tone and race.
Like Intellectual Insurgent to defend BirdEye. Why not jump on him like you do with the rest of the people making a non-issue out of light skin vs. dark skin?
And BirdEye is an idiot because he can't comprehend the difference between black/ African/ Negroid and also because he believes such a genetic difference exists.
Look, let's not get into a semantic battle here. Point is that there is a distinction between unmixed ancestral Black Africans and those with mixed heritage somewhere down their tree.
I guess we can't say conclusively either way about Liya Kebede without a DNA test - but as I already posted, Ethiopia is a border region known for a lot of admixture.
II - Exactly.
Let's face it, the 2 black hole debates here are:
1) Are White/light women better-looking than Blacker/darker women?
2) Arguing over the gray border regions between White & Black (the Fisher question).
And #2 must be defined and settled upon before even discussing #1. The races of any women used as examples in #1 must also be defined and agreed upon before being judged. And ultimately, such judgment is subjective, anyways.
In short, you could only come up with a generalized statistical answer at best for this question.
The interesting thing tho, which underscores my point, is how the beautiful "Black" women under scrutiny in these debates are generally those whose racial parentage are questionable. They are the ones handpicked along the "Black" Venn border regions.
Much less frequently are Black women who are "obviously full Black" chosen to be worthy of such admiration. Very rarely do you have a coal-Black woman who would never be suspected of having any White heritage showcased for her beauty.
Maybe people forget this since it has become the status-quo...but what if you were born a coal-Black woman with thick lips and a wide nose? Would you notice a difference in treatment, compared to lighter and Whiter women? In REALITY, aside from all the lip service?
If "unmistakably" "full-Negroid" women were consistently chosen for beauty models...this matter wouldn't ever be up for debate.
But it's only up for debate because they are routinely bypassed in favor of "Whiter/lighter" women...often posessing or appearing to possess mixed ancestry. Which instead of showcasing "Black" beauty, then tends to showcase "other" beauty, instead.
I would be curious to know the names and heritage of all the other models in this spread. I do know that Naomi Campbell at least, is of mixed heritage (don't know who the others are).
byrdeye said...
"Look, let's not get into a semantic battle here. Point is that there is a distinction between unmixed ancestral Black Africans and those with mixed heritage somewhere down their tree."
Most black Africans just like white Europeans have "mixed heritage" somewhere down their tree.
BirdEye- "1) Are White/light women better-looking than Blacker/darker women?"
According to whom?
byrdeye said- "The interesting thing tho, which underscores my point, is how the beautiful "Black" women under scrutiny in these debates are generally those whose racial parentage are questionable. They are the ones handpicked along the "Black" Venn border regions."
When it comes to this DV blog's debates that's the case… DV picks women according to HIS liking and many people here disagree with his choice.
BirdEye- "Much less frequently are Black women who are "obviously full Black" chosen to be worthy of such admiration. Very rarely do you have a coal-Black woman who would never be suspected of having any White heritage showcased for her beauty."
Only the case when it comes to the white dominated Western media which is understandable. Been to Ghana and I've never seen a pale faced model worthy of any admiration. Also how come the Western media hardly chooses pale freckled face, red-hair women to be worthy of such admiration? I mean these are women who would never be suspected of having any non-White heritage…?
Byrdeye said- "I would be curious to know the names and heritage of all the other models in this spread. I do know that Naomi Campbell at least, is of mixed heritage (don't know who the others are)."
Interesting… and honestly BirdEye does Naomi Campbell look like she's is of mixed heritage to you?
Which instead of showcasing "Black" beauty, then tends to showcase "other" beauty, instead.
*PA-TEW, PA-TEW, PA-TEW*
That's the sound of me shooting my critical thinking laser beams in this thread. The ship's shields are down and you're quickly running out of linguistic escape pods here Byrd. Time to either abandon the S.S. Racial Purity or surrender to linguistic reality.
Your notion that the presence of easily distinguishable "full Negroid" features should be a prerequisite for determining the legitimacy of the verbal descriptor of "black"—and anything esteemed as such—is simply a linguistic dead end.
Your iconoclasm is based on a rickety axiom. Your axiom, "Black" = "full Negroid", is destroyed by the linguistic reality in which we find ourselves; the perceptual reality in which we can clearly observe that a great many individuals are known as "black", despite their lack of "full Negroid" features.
No one is mad at you for your iconoclasm and your sticking up for the poor dark skinned women, it's just that you keep repeating the falsehood that "Black beauty" must, of necessity and propriety, be indistinguishable from "full African featured beauty".
You claim that they aren't showcasing "black" beauty because the women aren't "full Negroid", but this is just your opinion in which you equate the descriptor of "Black" with "that which has full African features on display."
Or let's go back to your hypothetical magazine cover.
Let's say that the issue is the GQ 'Celebration of White Men' edition and that Dolph Lundgren, Mark Paul Gosselaar, Ryan Phillipe, and Vlade Divac are all on the cover.
One person might look at the cover and give ol' Vlade a pass similar to the one you gave Tony Kukoc earlier, but Hitler (or someone else who believed in the concept of "full Whiteness") might look at the cover and wonder what the hell Vlade was doing in the same picture as those other full-White men.
So Byrd, does Vlade get a pass too?
Or if you say that Vlade isn't white, what does Tony Kukoc have that makes him more white than Vlade?
other full-White men
Actually, Mark Paul Gosselaar is half-Indonesian...
That said, most of the top White models are fully White.
Wheras most of the top "Black" models are mixed.
And yes, we can argue all day long where the line is drawn between Black/White (Fischerism) and who's really pwettier...but like I said, in the end you can only reach a general statistical answer on this. Just check the women on the Cosby show or any rap video...and I think this statistical predilection will become very clear.
And yes, Naomi Campbell is 1/4 Chinese... Anyone know who the other models in this edition are?
No BirdEye most the top models are not mixed- clearly you know nothing of the modeling industry. In fact most top "black" models nowadays come directly from Africa.
And even though Naomi Campbell is 1/4 Chinese does she really look mix? ...there are plenty of East African chics (Kenyans) that have identical features to Naomi.
And yes, we can argue all day long where the line is drawn between Black/White (Fischerism) and who's really pwettier...but like I said, in the end you can only reach a general statistical answer on this.
Huh? Fisher doesn't argue who is black and who isn't; he does, but his argument is a means to an end. You obviously don't understand Fisher's doctrine. Fisher and I are in total disagreement with regard to his terms. I'm too lazy to link to the discussions I've had with him, but suffice it to say that my views on the language that frames the concepts of black/white are as far removed from Fisher as you can get.
Actually, Mark Paul Gosselaar is half-Indonesian...
That said, most of the top White models are fully White.
Wheras most of the top "Black" models are mixed.
Nope—you're still stuck on the full/mixed dichotomy. That's why you keep repeating, "most of the top White models are fully White", without ever bothering to tell us what it is that makes someone "fully White". You can't even quantify it; all you know is that "most of the top White models are fully White".
But you sure as hell know what "fully Negroid" or "fully African" is, or at least you have some framework of what constitutes the "fullness" of an African person. Your assumed knowledge of what constitutes a full African is what caused you to ask: "Are there different standards of beauty for Black & White women...or is there one? And if there's one universal one, what is it? Straight or nappy hair? Light or very dark skin? Small, thin or big noses? Old Michael Jackson or new Michael Jackson?"
Byrd, how can you make the statement that all the top white models are "fully White" when you can't even articulate what full White is? Of course, instead of engaging in this arduous task, which you know to be impossible, you instead side step your inability to enumerate the qualities of "full White" by saying that the entire exercise would be nothing more than hollow Fisherian debate, and thus beneath you; by using this cop-out, you effectively misrepresent Fisher's iconoclastic argument in which he posits that the collective self-identification of so-called white people as "white" (and the reciprocal acknowledgment of this label by all other so-called whites) is something akin to a collective act of violence.
I have been in enough debates with Fisher to know that what you're peddling here has nothing to do with his actual doctrines and is really more of an excuse for you to tee off about your knowledge of full African-ness (of which you have much), while staying silent on the question of "full White" (of which you know little).
GC - Do dog and cat breeds exist?
" Byrd, how can you make the statement that all the top white models are "fully White" when you can't even articulate what full White is? Of course, instead of engaging in this arduous task, which you know to be impossible, you instead side step your inability to enumerate the qualities of "full White" by saying that the entire exercise would be nothing more than hollow Fisherian debate, and thus beneath you; by using this cop-out.."
Nice.
Byrd has been side stepping his argument since DV left him here to fend for himself.
He cannot merely concede the flaw in the basis of his argument "Black = Full African" because to do so, would be an admission of ignorance, and his entire argument would tumble like a house of cards.
Byrd, it is more dignified to accept your flaws and improve upon them than it is to support a position which you know to be errant, only for the sake of not being wrong. (Well not admitting wrongness. You are wrong whether or not you admit it. )
" Byrd, how can you make the statement that all the top white models are "fully White" when you can't even articulate what full White is? Of course, instead of engaging in this arduous task, which you know to be impossible, you instead side step your inability to enumerate the qualities of "full White" by saying that the entire exercise would be nothing more than hollow Fisherian debate, and thus beneath you; by using this cop-out.."
Nice.
Byrd has been side stepping his argument since DV left him here to fend for himself.
He cannot merely concede the flaw in the basis of his argument "Black = Full African" because to do so, would be an admission of ignorance, and his entire argument would tumble like a house of cards.
Byrd, it is more dignified to accept your flaws and improve upon them than it is to support a position which you know to be errant, only for the sake of not being wrong. (Well not admitting wrongness. You are wrong whether or not you admit it. )
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