The journey is the thing.
"Make no judgements where you have no compassion."
-buddhist monk
Wow.
Jasai is back!
Nah. No judgements.
Just practical advice.
I tell her to put a jacket on when it is cold and to wash her hands before eating.
Is acknowledging the perils of serial monogamy "judgment" or just being a dad?
Good Advice.
Don't forget to give it to your son as well.
"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander."
Did Halle say that?
Only a few women will figure this out. The rest will be stuck, alone, their entire lives.
If you give the counsel you posted and refrain from attaching this or any young woman's face, experience and person to it (the experience and peril can be relayed with out the personification), it is wonderful advice and if heeded, will surely benefit her.
If presented to her the way you have presented it here, you may risk the misconception to your daughter that a certain kind of person takes this route. When the reality is, the people who take this route do and the people who don’t, take some other. And lessons, valuable and lasting ones, can be earned on every journey.
Your baby girl won’t always wear a coat when you tell her to and nothing about that should be personal. And still the reality and experience of not doing so will find and teach her. We would hate fro her to think only a “certain kind of girl” doesn’t wear her jacket when her daddy tells her to. and so if she doesn't, she becomes by default, a certain kind of girl.
that would be nonsense.
She's back!
she is.
Men need to stop telling women what to do with their bodies.
And I sure don't think any woman should be getting married at 21. Women need to know themselves before they get entangled in serious relationships...We have deal with ourselves and our actions for a lifetime, but that relationship only has a 50/50 chance.
Camille,
Welcome to the blog.
Thank you for speaking up. We like a diversity of opinion.
I can see what you are saying. It can come off a bit boorish for men to preach about "how many sex partners a woman should and should not have" and "when she should get married".
Many women certainly do agree with you, that women should "get to know themselves" before marriage. In fact, that attitude has been pretty standard among American women for about ... let's say ... 40 years now.
How's it workin' out for them? Are women having the deeply fulfilling relationships, that they want?
Or is there room for improvement?
Based on observation, I am starting to suspect that the older generations, our grand parents and their grand parents before them, may have been right.
Maybe there is some value in preserving much of your sex life for after marriage.
And if so, shouldn't we as parents be as clever in our marketing of good values to kids, as the marketers of bad values?
DV
"Maybe there is some value in preserving much of your sex life for after marriage."
That implies that people where not have sex outside of their marriages back then. I am not sure that assumption is accurate. "Poppa Was A Rolling Stone". "Love the One Your With"!
No Casper,
Actually. It implies no such thing.
I know you are looking for a chance to argue, but hold your horses.
Whether or not The Temptations had sex outside of marriage is not the operative point.
Denmark,
The problem is that male attitudes have stayed the same since the change occured lo those 40 years ago. Are we assuming that our grandparents had "deeply fulfilling relationships" ? I know mine sure didn't. A lot of the old-timers stayed together for economic reasons and because of social mores. Men were sliding by and having their way because we relied on them for junk.
*
I'm really disappointed by your old-world conservativism and sexism. Yeah, a woman might have said this, but echoing the sentiment gets none of us anywhere.
The world is afraid of a single independent woman and instead of women wielding that they are beating themselves and feeling guilty. The more women realize that they don't need a relationship to be fully actualized and content (or to have babies!), the better they will be. In the meantime, men should sit back and take notes from all the women (especially black women)who are doing it so incredibly well .
many people did. even the people that we think did not. they just did not "let go" of the family life so easily or take it out of their consideration as a result.
and even that had it's own set of consequences. not better, just different.
sex, does not a marriage/family make.
i am referencing the notion that 'back in the day" not as many folks indulged in recreational or "outside of the marriage bed" sex.
Camille said ...
"The problem is that male attitudes have stayed the same since the change occured lo those 40 years ago. "
Have they?
I think men have changed a great deal Camille. Men have been subject to the same propaganda as have women. That propaganda suggested men would be happier if they were not "burdened" with a nagging wife and expensive kids.
"Why you want to rush into marriage?"
"Play the field"
"Sow your oats"
"Get a prenup"
"Make that money, then get any woman you want!"
Consequently we have a nation of 40 year old "educated" black men dating 23 year old strippers and who don't even have girlfriends, let alone wives.
We also have a nation of 35 year old women seeking viable men for marriage and finding their prospects bleak.
I have conversations with 40 year old men everyday who bought into the myth of "learning who they were" only to look up now and discover the Porsche doesn't fulfill them nearly as much would a son.
My perspective is old-world and sexist?
Maybe.
However, it's a sad day when a father is sexist because he encourages his daughter to value marriage, motherhood and her sexuality.
It’s not the promoting as much as the condemning that is being pushed back. You can do one without doing the other.
Sista Jasai,
Is encouraging a child not to smoke, condemning smokers?
What if I show that child a photo of a man smoking through a hole in his neck, am I condemning that man?
I think not.
Now, maybe I have not been successful, but please trust that the effort behind illustrating the consequences of serial monogamy is to motivate many not to hurt one.
"Sista Jasai,
Is encouraging a child not to smoke, condemning smokers?"
-DV
Not unless you condemn smokers.
Having this woman's photo and her various lovers posted up here and mocking her assertion that she now wants children is a condemnation on the process she chose (and she may not have even “known” she was choosing this).
Again you do not need to do that in order to relay this valuable and relevant perspective. You could have posted a beautiful photo of a pregnant woman with her family and extolled the very same virtues without ever mentioning this woman’s name or circumstance.
It changes the tone, the scope and the focus. All of which shape perception.
But you know that.
The Buddha might refer to this kind of shift as “skillful means”
jasai said...
Having this woman's photo and her various lovers posted up here and mocking her assertion that she now wants children is a condemnation on the process she chose (and she may not have even “known” she was choosing this).
You are right Jasai.
I took advantage of her celebrity to illustrate a point.
I would never do something like that to a woman I knew personally.
My fault.
Jasai, I hear you, but for pete's sake! We can barely discuss for having to be mindful of one's "journey." Candidly, isnt keeping Halle's "journey" in its proper perspective, Halle's responsibility? Without illustrations to which ideas refer or upon which opinions are based -- what is a discussion? What is a blog for the matter?
Halle's knows who's she's been involved with. There aint no new and secret information being revealed here.
Everyone and everything is not a victim being putupon.
Jasai: Having this woman's photo and her various lovers posted up here and mocking her assertion that she now wants children is a condemnation on the process she chose (and she may not have even “known” she was choosing this).Again you do not need to do that in order to relay this valuable and relevant perspective. You could have posted a beautiful photo of a pregnant woman with her family and extolled the very same virtues without ever mentioning this woman’s name or circumstance.
Robyn quoting Jasai: It aint right. But its real.
Oh Denmark,
So much to jump on here. I am just going to do bullet points
* I think you are making generalizations based on the the brothas you know. I'd love to see statistics about how many single ell-to-do black men are really out there dating 23 year old strippers. I think I might be able to count them on one hand.
* What "propaganda" are you referring to? Did this propaganda come into existence after feminism?
* Are you saying that because women refuse to settle down at age 21 these well-to-do black men are now unable to find wives? Or because of feminism men have chosen to avoid marriage? It sounds that way.
* Also, it seems to me that there are two troubling groups here 1) 40 year old men who have Porsches and want sons and 2) middle aged black women who have Porsches and want children. According to you calculation, no one seems to want these fabled meaningful relationships which you alluded to before. So how's about you just coordinate that gang of 40 year olds into a handy dandy "Well-To-Do Black Man Crew" sperm bank. They'll get every other weekend visitation. Problem solved.
* As for encouraging your daughter to value marriage....what's in it for her? Sounds like some of the old propaganda to me. As for encouraging her to value sexuality motherhood, that's all well and good, but it's her body and life to choose what sort/ how much sex she wants to have AND whether motherhood will be the right choice for her. The best you can do is encourage her to respect and love her body and always maintain her self-determination.
Is encouraging a child not to smoke, condemning smokers?
You might not be condemning smokers but you are condemning a choice they've made, and we are defined by the choices we make.
You are passing judgement on Halle, who has committed no harm and no foul. In a better world, a woman would be able to have the job and the family. Let's work on building that better world.
robyn,
people can frame any subject any way they would like. but there is a way which is conducive to being positive and not negative.
I am suggesting that the conversation simply could have been framed a different way and less offense would have been taken. and directly as it relates to the ultimate point DV is making - which is valid - many more people would have been able to "hear" him.
but those who tend to focus on a situation, any situation, by regularly submitting the negative angle, can be spotted a mile away.
and in being mindful that what we focus on expands, I believe that DV intends to do good and not harm with his observations and so i offered that alternative approach.
but it is just another way. people will do what they will.
You are very right Jasai!
You and Moses Denmark. Ha ha.
Funny how men want to control female sexuality, and can`t.
Whole fake cultures are based around that. Ha ha.
Keep in mind that she may become a porn star, and gang bang 50 guys at the same time.
Guess what...
That would not make her a bad person.
"Keep in mind that she may become a porn star, and gang bang 50 guys at the same time.
Guess what...
That would not make her a bad person."
skip sievert
Nah Skip. She would not make her a bad person at all.
It would just make her yet another spiritually bankrupt secular atheist low life trying to substitute sex for substance.
Something like your mother.
you know better than that.
we are not what we do.
that includes you being a [insert word here] for calling skips mama a name.
you don't know her.
I feel you Sista Jasai,
But I'm willing to bet my man Skip is able to discern the figurative from the literal.
But, out of curiosity, if we are not what we do, who are we?
is a falling leaf a tree?
do you judge a tree because it's leaves fall off?
is it more appealing/useful only when it's growing? when it can provide you shade or fruit?
or do you understand the process and excersize wisdom and patience as it moves in its own time, through it's due seasons?
and then knowing it will all happen again, and again, and again, do you smile or lament the idea.
Nicely put Jasai.
Don't forget to give it to your son as well.
"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander."