The Doc said...
Guys, have you factored in the fact that some foods have chemicals in them that are practically equivalent to drugs, addicting people to eating them? I think the people in power know what the food does to people, but because it's done with substances the FDA hasn't outlawed yet, they don't see any imperative to change it.I notice that a lot of times when I eat at a fast food joint (yeah, I kno, trying to get out of bad habits) not only am I hungry like a few hours later (no nutrients, I know.) but the next day, I find myself craving some phantom food that I can't think of. Then I think, what about "Taco Bell" or wherever else I ate the day before, and it's like a switch gets thrown. My body starts physically craving that stuff. I'm convinced they're putting chemicals in the food that are as addictive as nicotine. And because of some bad habits that I picked up as a kid, i'm addicted to chips and crap like that.
I say that to say this, a lot of people may WANT to get off the plantation diet, but then, a lot of people want to get off of crack/heroin too. Just not so easy.
DMG said...
Doc,What chemicals might those be? Why can't you just say, YOU want some Taco Bell? Rather than "the chemicals made me do it".
What's wrong with you people?
And who is this fucking "they"? Do you know how absurd you sound?
36 comments:
Doc,
What chemicals might those be? Why can't you just say, YOU want some Taco Bell? Rather than "the chemicals made me do it".
What's wrong with you people?
And who is this fucking "they"? Do you know how absurd you sound?
KW,
You are keeping count right?
MOTI, Doc,
I'm waiting.
DMG
First answer this to before I rack the score:
Are you suggesting that there is no link between consumption of high-fat and high-sugar foods and the releasing of neurochemicals in the brain? If sucrose can evoke dopamine release in rats, up to a point, then isn't The Doc somewhat justified in saying the fat and sugar content of Taco Bell food creates a craving in him - taking the power of marketing and his own personal taste into account, of course.
Go ahead KW, 'cause I was thinking the same thing.
I mean, I don't put much past big corporations when it comes to maximizing profits.
The past examples of the tobacco companies, and the current examples of the big drug companies don't give me much confidence.
It's about personal choice, but it can't be ignored that companies have a history on including questionable substances in food products because they have been proven to increase cravings.
Are you kidding?
Kick it again trillion! (click here)
MSG hides behind 25 or more names, such as "Natural Flavoring". MSG is even in your favourite coffee from Tim Horton's and Starbucks coffee shops.
Most have wondered if there could be an actual chemical causing the massive obesity epidemic.
A researchers at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, spent years working and made an amazing discovery while going through the "scientific journals" for a book he was writing called "The Slow Poisoning of America".
In hundreds of studies around the world, scientists were creating obese mice and rats to use in diet or diabetes test studies. No strain of rat or mice is naturally obese, so scientists have to create them. They make these creatures morbidly obese by injecting them with MSG when they are first born.
The MSG triples the amount of insulin the pancreas creates, causing rats (and perhaps humans) to become obese. They even have a name for the fat rodents they create: 'MSG-Treated Rats.'
Shocked? Go into your kitchen and checked the cupboards and the refrigerator. MSG was is in everything -- the Campbell's soups, the Hostess Doritos, the Lays flavoured potato chips, Top Ramen, Betty Crocker Hamburger Helper, Heinz canned gravy, Swanson frozen prepared meals, and Kraft salad dressings, especially the 'healthy low-fat' ones.
The items that don't have MSG marked on the product label had something called 'Hydrolysed Vegetable Protein,' which is just another name for Monosodium Glutamate.
It is shocking to see just how many of the foods we feed our children everyday are filled with this stuff. MSG is hidden under many different names in order to fool those who read the ingredient list, so that they don't catch on. (Other names for MSG are 'Accent, 'Aginomoto, 'Natural Meat Tenderiser,' etc.) But it didn't stop there.
When most families go out to eat, start asking at the restaurants what menu items contained MSG?
Most employees, even the managers, swear they don't use MSG. But when we ask for the ingredient list, which they grudgingly provided, sure enough, MSG and Hydrolysed Vegetable Protein were everywhere.
Burger King, McDonald's, Wendy's, Taco Bell, every restaurant -- even the sit-down eateries like TGIF, Chili's, Applebee's, and Denny's -- use MSG in abundance. Kentucky Fried Chicken seemed to be the WORST offender: MSG was in every chicken dish, salad dressing and gravy. No wonder I loved to eat that coating on the skin -- their secret spice was MSG!
So why is MSG in so many of the foods we eat? Is it a preservative, or a vitamin?
Not according to the Ontario Researchers. They said plain and simple that MSG is added to food for the addictive effect it has on the human body.
Even the propaganda website sponsored by the food manufacturers lobby group supporting MSG explains that the reason they add it to food is to make people eat more.
A study of the elderly showed that older people eat more of the foods that it is added to. The Glutamate Association lobbying group says eating more is a benefit to the elderly, but what does it do to the rest of us?
'Betcha can't eat [just] one,' takes on a whole new meaning where MSG is concerned! And we wonder why the nation is overweight!
MSG manufacturers themselves admit that it addicts people to their products. It makes people choose their product over others, and makes people eat more of it than they would if MSG wasn't added. Not only is MSG scientifically proven to cause obesity, it is an addictive substance.
Since its introduction into the American food supply fifty years ago, MSG has been added in larger and larger doses to the pre-packaged meals, soups, snacks, and fast foods we are tempted to eat everyday.
Whoa!!!!! DMG need publish sources..Who the Fu#k is They?
cont-
The FDA has set no limits on how much of it can be added to food. They claim it's safe to eat in any amount. But how can they claim it's safe when there are hundreds of scientific studies with titles like these:
(oh SNAP!)
''The monosodium glutamate (MSG) obese rat as a model for the study of exercise in obesity.'' Gobatto CA, Mello MA, Souza CT, Ribeiro IA. Res Commun Mol Pathol Pharmacol. 2002.
''Adrenalectomy abolishes the food-induced hypothalamic serotonin release in both normal and monosodium glutamate-obese rats.''
Guimaraes RB, Telles MM, Coelho VB, Mori C, Nascimento CM, Ribeiro. Brain Res Bull. 2002 Aug.
''Obesity induced by neonatal monosodium glutamate treatment in spontaneously hypertensive rats: An animal model of multiple risk factors." Iwase M, Yamamoto M, Iino K, Apparatchik K, Maraschinos N, Seminarians Fujishima Hyper tens Res. 1998 Mar.
''Hypothalamic lesion induced by injection of monosodium glutamate in suckling period and subsequent development of obesity.'' Tanaka K, Chimaera M, Nakamura K Kusunoki. Exp Neural. 1978 Oct.
(Hypothalamic dysfunction is a problem with the region of the brain called the hypothalamus, which helps control the pituitary gland and regulate many body functions, particularly in response to stress. The pituitary, in turn, controls the:
*Adrenal glands,
*Ovaries
*Testes
*Thyroid gland
No, the date of that last study was not a typo; it was published in 1978. Both the ''medical research community'' and ''food manufacturers'' have known about the side effects of MSG for decades.
Many more of the studies mentioned in the "Slow Poisoning of America."
It also links MSG to diabetes, migraines and headaches, autism, ADHD, and even Alzheimer's.
The big media doesn't want to tell the public either, fearing issues with their advertisers. It seems that the fallout on the fast food industry may hurt their profit margin. The food producers and restaurants have been addicting us to their products for years, and now we are paying the price for it. Our children should not be cursed with obesity caused by an addictive food additive.
THEY ARE OVER 115 (PUBLISHED MEDICAL) STUDIES THAT SHOWS HARMFUL EFFECTS OF MSG , HOWEVER HOUSE WILL SAY: "EVERY ONE - ALL TOGETHER NOW "-THEY ARE IDIOTS. ONLY I KNOW EVERYTHING! :)
Wax, it's easier if you just post a link. Next time just say "MSG is a common food additive that increases cravings and obesity. And here's the link."
And, after reading the article, it's obvious that large amounts of MSG contribue to obesity.
The info on whether they increase cravings is a tad more circumstantial, but then which of us hasn't eaten Chinese food and then been hungry and hour later?
The question becomes, is MSG in all forms bad, or is it acceptable in moderation. I remember as a child my mom wouldn't let us eat stuff with MSG, but if Wax is correct (which is looks like he is) MSG goes by many names and my mom would have been unaware of them.
Anyway, I score this round for KW, Wax and The Doc.
Sorry DMG, think you caught an L.
BIG MAN!
I can't find THE LINK! :)
As I told DMG earlier, I have a collection of over 20000 emails that i have saved over the last 10 years. (Say for instance I see a story that I like, I will email it to myself- 6 months from now - the link and the story might be gone.) Many of the links don't exist anymore- some do- but I have to search which is OK when I have time, and some links also have a password that you will need. I will link when I can. However it is easier for me to paste it from my emails. Sorry.
Finally, I can take out for example 5 studies in a link of 50 that is relevant to the topic.
Just trying to put it out there how I want it to. Will try to do better.
I had to search for Trillion in this site :) because I knew it was set up here once before.
Namaste-
The link I provided goes back to the same info brotha man. Click the link.
Cool Big M.
I clicked on your link, however that was not the same article where I got my info from the original email, but I understand what you are saying.
However from another one of my emails:
A great video explaining MSG-You can make "dirt taste good"
Click here
BTW, they are other items that are added that cause the effects Doc was talking about along with the MSG.
At a fast food restaurant you are guaranteed to get this chemical Bomb with all of the following ingredients mixed into one meal:
HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP (HFCS)
PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED OILS (TRANS FATS)
MSG
SODIUM NITRATE
REFINED SOY
WHITE SUGAR
ASPARTAME, SPLENDA, SWEET N LOW, EQUAL
FOOD COLORINGS (Blue 1, 2; Red 3; Green 3; Yellow 5, 6)
PROCESSED/REFINED WHEAT AND GLUTEN
BOOM!
Mix the aforementioned up in any lab and enjoy.
Good luck, it should be very healthy for the body, mind and soul.
One last thing:
The fact is many foods are labeled
as having "No MSG" but in fact not only contain MSG but also are laced with other excitotoxins of equal potency and danger.
As discussed previously, the glutamate (MSG) manufacturers and the processed food industries are always on a quest to disguise the MSG added to food.
Below is a partial list of the most common names for disguised MSG. Remember also that the powerful excitotoxins, aspartate
and L-cystine, are frequently added to foods and according to FDA rules
require NO LABELING AT ALL.
* Food Additives that ALWAYS contain MSG *
Monosodium Glutamate
Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein
Hydrolyzed Protein
Hydrolyzed Plant Protein
Plant Protein Extract
Sodium Caseinate
Calcium Caseinate
Yeast Extract
Textured Protein (Including TVP)
Autolyzed Yeast
Hydrolyzed Oat Flour
Corn Oil
* Food Additives That FREQUENTLY Contain MSG *
Malt Extract
Malt Flavoring
Bouillon
Broth
Stock
Flavoring
Natural Flavors/Flavoring
Natural Beef Or Chicken Flavoring
Seasoning
Spices
* Food Additives That MAY Contain MSG Or Excitotoxins *
Carrageenan
Enzymes
Soy Protein Concentrate
Soy Protein Isolate
Whey Protein Concentrate
Also: Protease Enzymes of various sources can release excitotoxin amino acids from food proteins.
Senior executive in the food additive industry :
" these excitotoxins are going to be in our food no matter how many name changes are necessary..."
Good luck!
"Are you suggesting that there is no link between consumption of high-fat and high-sugar foods and the releasing of neurochemicals in the brain?"
No. But that wasn't his assertion. He suggested there was an added "chemical" that made him hungry for Taco Bell.
Isn't that what he's suggesting? Should I quote it?
"Guys, have you factored in the fact that some foods have chemicals in them that are practically equivalent to drugs, addicting people to eating them? I think the people in power know what the food does to people, but because it's done with substances the FDA hasn't outlawed yet, they don't see any imperative to change it."
Look, KW. There are alot of biochemical reactions and interactions that occur when one eats. But there are simpler, and more plausible explanations than mysterious additives that turn you into a Chalupa and Tostada craving zombie.
Can we put a moratorium on the science fiction for awhile?
Anyway, your task wasn't to keep score, it was to tally the number of times our host calls on me.
Big Man,
When are you going to realize that Wax et al. aren't presenting anything groundbreaking? You really think I "caught an L". Geez, then I'm reproached. Guess I'll just burn all those books on biochemistry and medicine, because a blog entry says there's a link.
There's no proven link between monosodium glutamate and obesity. Hell, since you are going with blog entry data. I'll submit some of my own. I mean you guys wouldn't believe something from a "university study" because well that's "plantation" stuff. Here's something from a Blog.
Big Man, Wax, KW. Why don't you all take me through how MSG "causes" obesity. Show me how by adding MSG to a low calorie well balanced diet and moderate exercise will cause a person to become a video game playing lard ass.
Show me how that works. What's the mechanism? (and Wax, see I'm not the ONLY person who thinks you should learn some html).
Oh, here I'll even help you out UNC-Chapel Hill/Chinese study? It wasn't exactly double blinded and controlled. It was a recall study, where participants were asked to "demonstrate how much MSG they used in their food" and how much food they consumed. Pay close attention to how much total FAT was consumed by the "non-MSG" vs. "MSG" groups (significant difference). Also the study only says BMI as greater than or equal to 25. So anyone with a BMI of 25.1 is overweight. Let's not even bother with the fact that BMI doesn't measure body fat, but was developed in a "Western" population, and may not even be valid for Chinese villagers.
The conclusion of this study, which I think is weak, is that there might sorta be a link, but we don't know what that might be. And actually this study never says anything about obesity...which is defined as BMI greater than 30...just overweight...by how much we don't know...in a group where these BMI parameters may or may not be valid.
Even you all can appreciate how weak this study is, can't you?
"There's no proven link between monosodium glutamate and obesity." DMG
(And this guy has a medical license.)
Stay. Away. From. Plantation MD's.
If MSG is so bad for you, why doesn't everyone in Asia have a headache?
MOTI,
Show me link.
Don't rhyme, don't perseverate, don't waste time, don't say I gotta answer 3 questions while standing on my head first.
You opened your bitch lips, now show me the link.
MOTI,
Show me the link. (Just so you won't pretend to have missed this, I'll keep posting to bring it to the top of your list.)
DMG
Oh that's what wanted? You've headlined 5 times in 3 days, you provide a good script.
Are you saying there is absolutely no possibility that fast food can be as addictive as heroin - not due to "some chemicals" but as a consequence of sutained intake of junk fats and sugars?
Chinese restaurant syndrome does occur in the Chinese, but does that its mean its ocurrence in the West is nullified?
KW,
First of all we are talking about a mystery chemical. If you want to talk fat and sugar cravings, that's a different story, and I'm happy to have the conversation.
Second, are you suggesting there were no fat people before the introduction of "Fast food" places? Are you trying to tell me that fast food is to blame for all obesity? IF you eat McDonald's once in your lifetime that you are doomed to stand in line Zombie like for all eternity?
I don't care what the study says, I think saying "fast food" specifically is as addictive as heroin is more sensationalism than science. Because, how do you define "fast food"? If you eat at Mortons every night you may find not only do you have a cholesterol problem, but you might be craving their Petite Filet Mignon Sandwiches. Junk Food is a term, not a food item. If your body finds an easily attainable food source that will provide you with all sorts of energy units, it's probably going to want to continue to have that food.
We crave fat because 1. It tastes good. 2. it provides more energy per gram than carbohydrate, or protein (probably why it tastes good to us). If our ancestors ate a meal with fat they were able to store that fat for a "rainy day" so to speak.
In our society where you don't really need to "work" very hard to get a meal (chase down that giraffe, or forage for roots) alot of it gets stored. We eat the wrong things, at the wrong time, in the wrong proportions. You don't have to eat "organic" to be healthy, and you don't have to blame "secret added chemicals" to figure out why someone is a fat ass. It ain't the chemical...it's your repetition of fork to mouth.
It's not a mystery. I wish some 5'2" 350lbs person would come into my office talking about "the MSG made me fat"...or "the government don't want me to be thin".
DMG
I wrote:
And, after reading the article, it's obvious that large amounts of MSG contribue to obesity.
The info on whether they increase cravings is a tad more circumstantial, but then which of us hasn't eaten Chinese food and then been hungry and hour later?
The question becomes, is MSG in all forms bad, or is it acceptable in moderation
I believe my comment aligns with this comment from you:
The conclusion of this study, which I think is weak, is that there might sorta be a link, but we don't know what that might be
Now, I respect that the study referenced may have not fit your guidelines for a reputable study, but from the little I know about medical studies, I know that self-reporting data is not uncommon. I also know that most Western studies on obesity use BMI as standard, even if BMI has been shown to be out of touch with the realities of the regular healthy weights for black folks.
I took the Doc's statement, and KW's comment as saying that there are items in our food which can be addictive and can cause unhealthy cravings. Now, whether these items were placed there for a nefarious purpose, or to just sell more food, I don't know. But, McDonalds was willing to slather its french fries with meat grease to make them taste better, and tobacco companies were willing to tell the public that nicotine wasn't addictive. Oil companies used leaded gasoline knowing it was bad, and asbestos was once a common building material.
I don't think corporation really care about the general health or well-being of the general public as long as their profits increase. And I think they are willing to do whateve is necessary to increase profits.
So, I'm not as skeptical as you are about their willingness to use a chemical that makes food taste better, but also tends to make people a lot more fat.
Yo, thanks for that article Cnu. That joint was interesting and informative.
Big Man,
Self reporting data is the weakest of all data. The correlation of BMI to actual obesity in Asian populations is quite low actually.
And you guys are playing very loose with the term addictive. I know you guys are trying to help, but The Doc's original statement was more about some mystery additive specifically placed in food to make you crave a certain food. KW tried to help out by giving a hint about fat and sugar...which is an interesting topic, but not the one The Doc put forth.
Big Man, all I'm saying is that the answer is much simpler and benign than what you all are imagining.
Fat and sugar tastes good. Too much of it will make you fat. I know that's not mysterious or sexy, but it's the truth.
I just want EVERYONE to see that our host has FAILED to provide a proven link between monosodium glutamate and obesity.
Do you all HEAR ME?
You don't have to eat "organic" to be healthy, and you don't have to blame "secret added chemicals" to figure out why someone is a fat ass. It ain't the chemical...it's your repetition of fork to mouth.
Unless I'm missing something, the whole discussion was about what causes the "repetition of fork to mouth."
Doc and KW believe there is something in the food. Doc thinks it's a "chemical" KW thinks it's the high-fat and sugar-content.
You don't dispute that unhealthy eating patterns and unhealthy food items are to blame, you just don't blame "chemicals" or secret government agents.
Personally, I think the problem is that you took the word "chemical" and saw "evil items injected into food that cause obesity."
I saw "chemical" and read "unhealthy food additives that make food taste better and be stored easier."
On the issue of the addictive nature of "fast food," I haven't done any medical studies, but I do think it's quite plausible that folks can get "addicted" to the high-fat and high-sugar content of the foods at many of your drive-thru restaurants. I mean, people are addicted to coffee, and I've seen them go through the withdrawals, so why not the McChicken?
Fat and sugar tastes good. Too much of it will make you fat. I know that's not mysterious or sexy, but it's the truth.
I first stopped in here a few years back thinking out loud about the role of sugar (IN VAST QUANTITIES) which functioned as the primary driver for the conquest of the new world and the transatlantic slave trade.
Up till that time, european sugar sources were quite scarce, (beets/honey) and all sugar and confections in any quantity came through the venetians thanks to their exclusive control of the Indian sugar cane source. Thus candy, ice cream, etc..., all very fascinating.
But when the secret of sugar cultivation in vast quantities in the "tropical" environs got loose, so also the corporations British and Dutch formed to exploit this burgeoning and explosive new dietary addiction.
The notion of "dopamine addiction" arose in conjunction with my realization of the extent to which sugar changed the course of modern human history from the 15th century forward...,
Here we go; sugar more addictive than cocaine.
But to the above, I think it would make one helluv'n interesting historical narrative to attempt to reconstruct/survey the collective effects and motivations arising in the old world from the introduction of mass quantities of sugar, caffeine, nicotine, etc...,
We know at least one of the major effects this addiction had on our own history;
However, a much larger scale production of sugarcane shifts across the Atlantic to America with the introduction of sugarcane to Santo Domingo on Columbus' second voyage in 1493. Eventually, America will surpass Mediterranean sugarcane industry as huge plantations will spread to Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Jamaica. Sugarcane also made inroads with indigo in the Portuguese colony of Brazil. In conjunction with industrialization in Europe the habit of sugar consumption with coffee, tea, and rum will become a drug-like addiction involving sugar, alcohol, and tobacco. Europeans and eventually the world, as it industrializes, will, without much alarm or perceptions of dangers of abuse, feed one of the largest cash crops and food businesses in the world. Cacao like tea and coffee contains a stimulant and is combined with vanilla , milk products, and sugar to produce a sweet with supposed aphrodisiac properties called chocolate this is only one aspect of sugars impact and importance.
The initial labor for sugarcane plantations in America will fall on Native Americans, but by 1600 95 % of Native Americans in the Caribbean and Atlantic Coast populations will be dead, mainly due to disease and labor. African slavery will replace the Native American slave labor and by 1888 9.5 million African people will be enslaved in the Americas. The Caribbean plantations will dominate in sugarcane and slaves, but Portuguese Brazil will always be a strong competitor to the Spanish and other Europeans in the Caribbean. The Southeastern United States in colonial times and as part of the United States will also operate plantations dominated with sugarcane and sorghum production of sugar. The cruelty and exploitation of these slave plantation systems will, driven by unprecedented greed, bring the entire African slave trade aspect to a halt by the late 1880s. In the case of French Haiti (called Saint Dominique) 450,000 African slaves will be persecuted so that a bloody fifteen year revolt will result in the only full take over of a colony in America by African slaves.
I remember reading about that study with the sugar and cocaine and rats.
It was in some book I was reading about children and child health. Damn, I can't remember the name. Might have been that "Nurture Shock" book, but I'm not sure.
That's a cool theory about the effect of sugar addiction on the course of human history, Cnu.
Big Man,
True, but why are you still blaming some outside force? Whatever happened to just plain old gluttony? Nobody wants to be responsible for fork to mouth, and sitting on their ass playing X-Box.
"the problem is you took the word chemical" Big Man, please re-read Doc's post in it's entirety again.
CNu, interesting as it seems, this is a problematic study on a couple of levels. Rats ain't humans. And there are other primate studies that contradict this one. Second, "the postsynaptic effects of supranormal levels of dopamine induced by cocaine are...limited by short-term receptor desensitization and/or inter- or intracellular opponent process. Thus, absolute levels of striatal dopamine in response to different types of reward may not accurately predict their addictive potential." That's from the discussion section of the original article. Third preference for intense sweetness may be from brain pathways more powerful than the pathways controlling reward oriented behavior related to cocaine.
In otherwords...it ain't that easy. And by the way, they were using saccharin, not processed sugar.
HERE is the original article, scroll down and read the entire Discussion section at the very least. It's an interesting article.
interesting as it seems, this is a problematic study on a couple of levels. Rats ain't humans. And there are other primate studies that contradict this one.
pause brah...,
while I appreciate the literature and will certainly check it out - I din'say jack about the study one way or another.
truthfully, it wasn't an object of my concern.
what I did say, however, is that sugar made/makes my chirren high'n'a'muhphuggah, period.
(oh, and beyond sugar, the 10 year old has had a couple cups of coffee (with cream and sugar) and that's some pure comedy gold. He spent 3 self-motivated and unprompted hours working on a school project sunday morning after being given one cup of coffee)
based on my observation of my children, I extrapolated to consider what I believe to be the more interesting speculation concerning the mass impetus to the conquest of the new world.
I can only imagine the collective effect and the business frenzy that must have been unleashed across western and central europe when it transitioned from its medieval sugar-scarce state - in which the value of sugar pound for pound was some multiple of the value of gold - to the one in which sugar, caffeine, and nicotine all began flowing en masse into the capitals of that world. By 1493 Court astrologer John Dee had evoked the egregore of corporate structure by then at the behest of Queen Bess, and with that risk distribution and wealth aggregation vehicle in place, all of sudden the european world was transformed from sugar scarce medieval feudalism to corporo-feudal money and yayo time. (sugar being the yayo du jour)
That's a cool theory about the effect of sugar addiction on the course of human history, Cnu.
Think about it Big Man.
Isn't it easier to accept and to outline the way in which such a primary and complementary set of addictions coupled with the business developments required to service these addictions - would serve as a primary driver to frenzied economic and political activity - wherein MASSIVE and UNPRECEDENTED wealth was being accumulated by feeding appetites previously hardly addressed at all?
sheeeeeiiiiitttt...........,
otherwise we're left with thinking that these people are just greedy, murderous and evil - they fundamentally had to have something to get greedy/murderous/evil about!!!
Once such an unprecedented shock to the system was introduced, any expedient measure would be implemented that could be implemented pursuant to those ends and as permitted by the Church and by the common laws and political interests of the day. (get the money and the yayo)
That said, I believe the same functional template remains in place up through the present day with many systemic refinements made over the intervening centuries.
Bottomline, the notion of a genocidal conspiracy strikes me as a priori ridiculous when what is obviously taking place is chemically, biologically, neurologically sophisticated sales, marketing, and profit-making....,
DMG
You insist it's just about self-control, when medical study after medical study says it's not. There's information about the role of genetics in certain addictions and behaviors and there's information about the interactions between outside chemicals and our bodies.
I don't discount the personal responsibility angle, I just don't see it as a cure-all, nor do I think that it's as easy for everybody to exercise personal responsibility. I just posted something at my blog about a book written by a cat named Wes Moore that talks about the influence of outside forces on our choices and life paths. To me, this whole discussion revolves around whether it's plausible that the make-up of "fast food" contributes to people's desire to consume it in large quantities. And, honestly, I think you've already said it does with your comment on the bodies need for fat. I understand that you are on guard against folks trying to blame outside forces for all their ills, but that's not what I'm doing. I'm saying that given the past actions of large corporations in the this country (I mean, Coca Cola really did have cocaine in its recipe at one point) I don't see why it's so hard for you to admit that they could be consciously producing food that is addictive in an effort to drive business.
Why do you think this is so unlikely?
(And I understand what Doc wrote, but I think the conversation has gone beyond that point. Besides, "chemicals" does not mean some evil mystery substance, it means a substance created through a chemical process. That can apply to a lot of stuff, like MSG, which actually IS added to foods. And, according to that article, the reason why the food tastes better has to do with our craving for fats and the certain flavor that accompanies them. So adding MSG, a chemical, to food makes it taste better, thus making people crave it more, and finally, making it addictive.)
CNU said:
otherwise we're left with thinking that these people are just greedy, murderous and evil - they fundamentally had to have something to get greedy/murderous/evil about!!!
I stopped thinking that way a long time ago. Rather, I stopped thinking that they were unique in their greed, evil and murderous nature. And people will always find something to get greedy, evil and murderous about, we excel at that.
CNu,
It's an interesting study. Not trying to get at you. I just don't want the unwashed masses going home with the wrong idea...because they didn't read it.
Big Man,
I'm not just talking about self-control...which is a part of it. Some motherfuckers really ARE just greedy. It's about lifestyle change. The patients who have changed their lifestyle (sensible portion/selection of food, and moderate exercise) have kept the excess weight off, and lived more healthy lifestyles.
Nobody said it was going to be easy. Shit, nothing worth doing is easy. I've said to my patients "Would you rather exercise 1 hour a day, or be dead 24 hours a day?"
Look, I know it's not just about willpower etc. But I'm a little tired of hearing "I got a glandular problem", "I'm 'addicted' to McDonald's", or "I have a chemical imbalance". Bullshit.
I like fast food on occasion. Like I've said...I still have less than 8% body fat. Why? Because I don't go overboard, it's something I might do twice a month. Just because. Alot of it is organization. I grew up poor, but I didn't grow up in line at McDonald's everyday after school. Where are these kids getting $50/week to eat there? With that kind of money, a kid could not only eat well and more healthy, but have money left over.
Big Man, I don't think large corporations NEED to add anything to drive business. There stuff already tastes good. There are things that are possible (super secret zombie inducing chemical to sell sodas) and things that are plausible (they make a good product that alot of people like).
You know as well as I do, that "Doc" meant the evil mystery chemical. Nothing in his post suggests any deeper thought. Sorry Doc.
The MSG thing you wrote is interesting, but I think you are simplifying it to much. But I understand what you are getting at and will leave it at that....and I still think we are playing a bit loose with the term addiction.
Well DMG, i'm not going to presume I have any research to back up what I wrote, that was just something I noticed from personal observation. I.E. me sitting around, thinking I should be putting on a pot of rice and some beef tips, but that doesn't grab me nearly so much as running out to a fast food joint. (Heh, DV's prolly reading this and saying, "Negro, them beef tips'll kill ya just as fast as the Bell!" :D) I'm not one of those weak-willed people who can't resist fast food, i'm just saying it's weird that I find myself craving it sometime. And i'm the type of person who, after i've had something once, usually don't want it again for awhile.
And I thought I made it clear that when I said "they", I meant the people in charge of the fast food joints, namely the heads of the corporations, but also those under them in charge of deciding what goes into the food, etc. No big mystery.
What chemicals might those be? Why can't you just say, YOU want some Taco Bell? Rather than "the chemicals made me do it".
And as to what chemicals, if I had to hazard a guess, it might be the same ones that make a 12-year old McDonald's hamburger look the same as a twelve second old one. Don't you think it might be remotely possible that the same preservatives that can keep meat looking the same after all those years might have some qualities in them that make them addictive to the human body?
Yeah, I saw that picture, and I still call bullshit on it.
Look, I've been college, and had some nasty dorm roommates and found moldy McDonald's hamburgers. So please, use a little common sense when viewing these things. You are smarter than that.
Doc, I'm not getting at you because I "dislike" you or whatever. But like I tell my med students, when you hear hoofbeats in the woods, are you going to think of a Zebra or a horse? Why imagine something sinister when there are more plausible explanations? What's so hard about looking up basic information from reputable sources? Why is that somehow a sin?
that'd be a "crime of conformity" Bro. PMD....,
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