This from Alex von TunzelmannIn the beginning, there were two nations. One was a vast, mighty and magnificent empire, brilliantly organized and culturally unified, which dominated a massive swath of the earth. The other was an undeveloped, semifeudal realm, driven by religious factionalism and barely able to feed its illiterate, diseased and stinking masses. The first nation was India. The second was England. [1577]
This is why I am not an essentialist. You have to literally amputate your brain in the manner that Bydeye has. In his global - if you could call it that - politics there is an all pervasive Jewish contagion. Yet the very best parts of the world are where the Jews are the strongest and most entrenched!
Again, Denmark you could patronize this stuff if you want to but it really is about the needs of a frustrated, insecure, with a paucity of accomplishments and healthy relationships.
I'll say it again:
Since you've proven yourself to be historically illiterate and to possess an abbreviated capacity for reading comprehension and abstract reasoning, I'll limit myself to 2009 and our proximal, concrete circumstances. Growing up as one of two boys born to a single mother in Jamaica, Queens during the crack era, in outward appearance I was indistinguishable from other black kids in the lower income strata. (We always had food but a few times gas and electric were out.)
Presently, I'm an ER doctor, husband, and father. I'm in the top one percent bracket of income earners in the country. I routinely and successfully confront more life altering decisions than any other non-military professionals except for air traffic controllers. My brother is a Brandeis professor who covered this year's inauguration, has been featured on C-SPAN about three times, written opinion pieces and book reviews for the New York Times and Washington Post, appeared on NPR beside Niall Ferguson, and on PBS NewsHour panels with Richard Norton Smith, Michael Beschloss, and Richard Brookhiser.
My question for you is what the fuck have you done? What do your siblings do? What kind of recognition and awards has society bestowed upon you? Because even if white people are genetic hegemons, you, until proven otherwise, are not. Where did you get you your Ivy League degrees from? Or did you go to Cal Tech and Stanford? Do you even have a degree? Are you happily married with well adjusted kids?
Surely, as the product of superior European genes and being a man with uncompromised opinions, you must be published and an intimate of Pat Buchanan's. Your family, like the Kennedys and the Buckleys, must be loaded with exemplars of individual success. After unambiguously making your claim to America greater than mine, you must trace your lineage to a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Being a true white man with unimpeachable credentials, then you must have roots in the Tidewater aristocracy of the Mid-Atlantic or the Brahmins of New England.
I may be a credit to my race, but if you don't have the appurtenances above, aren't you a disgrace to yours?
138 comments:
ROTFLMAO.
White Supremacy is a system designed for the benefit "white" underachievers.
This is why if Bush Jr. had been black he never would have made it to the Presidency. And if Obama were white he would've been a mega-billionaire. And if Sub were white he would own Mt. Sinai Hospital and it's affiliates.
And Mills wouldn't have to prostrate himself before "superior white genes" and try to pass as white and/or proto white Jewish in order to get a gig or two.
Get 'em Sub!
White Supremacy is a system designed for the benefit "white" underachievers.
And there you have it, Fish: a perfectly tidy external rationale for why you ain't done shit.
Too many mediocre whiteboys catching breaks.
Feel better now?
Mills...
"And there you have it, Fish: a perfectly tidy external rationale for why you ain't done shit."
I ain't done shit?
LOL
You gotta be kiddin'.
Plus, in contrast to a certain talented though under-appreciated, under-utilized, and thus under-paid screen writer, I accomplished what I achieved without mis-utilizing my tongue and puckered lips by giving some white boys a permanent rim job.
Plus, in contrast to a certain talented though under-appreciated, under-utilized, and thus under-paid screen writer, I accomplished what I achieved without mis-utilizing my tongue and puckered lips by giving some white boys a permanent rim job.
oh. shit.
Get 'em Sub!
That shit there was like a cobalt-salted doomsday device. Nothing lacking a baseline of melanin protection could ever even hope to survive the fallout and radioactive aftermath...,
Y'all brothas are funny.
Poltroon. That's what I omitted from "Again, Denmark you could patronize this stuff if you want to but it really is about the needs of a frustrated, insecure (blank) with a paucity of accomplishments and healthy relationships."
And I know that you use the new James Bond dude (he's adequate) as Byrdeye's avatar but it really should be that pudgy short white guy who threw beer at Ron Artest and then retreated meekly into anonymity and feigned confused innocence when he saw a mesomorph approaching him.
The Pacers-Pistons brawl (also known as The Malice at the Palace and the Basketbrawl) was an altercation that occurred in a National Basketball Association game between the Detroit Pistons and Indiana Pacers on November 19, 2004 at The Palace of Auburn Hills in Auburn Hills, Michigan. With less than a minute before the game was officially over, the fighting began on the court and, after a plastic cup with beer was thrown at Pacer player Ron Artest, extended into the stands.
The repercussions led to nine players being suspended without pay for a total of 146 games, which led to $10 million in salary being lost by the players. Five players were also charged with assault, and all five were eventually sentenced to a year on probation and community service. Five fans were also legally charged, and John Green, who threw the cup at Artest, received a lifetime ban from attending Pistons games. The fight also led the NBA to mandate increased security presence between players and fans, and to ban the sale of alcohol after the third quarter.
Sub - Have you ever been the recipient of affirmative action?
hehehehehehehe.............At long last someone has put that empty barrel in it's place, at the bottom of the heap.
Sub got in that ass, and homeboy still has not responded to the simple question.
What have you done?
byrdeye said...
Sub - Have you ever been the recipient of affirmative action?
You've got to be kidding me. Why should he answer this question when you haven't bothered to answer even one of his? Sub never broached the subject of affirmative action or the Bell Curve shit, so please cease the game you're playing. Everything Sub said was about You; it was all addressed to You, in relation to You, and what You have accomplished.
"My question for you is what the fuck have you done? What do your siblings do? What kind of recognition and awards has society bestowed upon you? Because even if white people are genetic hegemons, you, until proven otherwise, are not. Where did you get you your Ivy League degrees from? Or did you go to Cal Tech and Stanford? Do you even have a degree? Are you happily married with well adjusted kids?"
So, do us all a favor and start answering these questions Byrd.
Stop stalling with these half-assed distractions about affirmative action and Bull Curve shit and type up a coherent and honest response to the questions that were directly addressed to you.
If you fail to directly address Sub's inquiries and continue to obstruct with these bullshit segues into Bell Curve/affirmative action nonsense then it's pretty obvious that you're embarrassed on some level and simply can't muster up enough honesty to participate here.
We're all waiting with baited breath to hear your response, so let's have it.
"So, do us all a favor and start answering these questions Byrd"
Sure, IF he can first tell me why it's relevant?
If it's a strictly individual comparison/pissing contest - then why only single me out? Why not everyone else in here too? I sure haven't singled anyone in here out, so what ad hominem attack would this possibly be a response to?
If we're being used as representative proxies for our respective races...then again, that's a logical fallacy because you can't represent entire bell curves with singular data points. So, this would pointlessly prove nothing in that regard.
Am I missing something here? Or was this just a self-indulgent excuse for Sub to beat his own meat, I mean chest?
My man Cobb was a moderator of one of the original Black oriented usenet newsgroups back in the day (90's) - he had this to say about the likes of Byrdeye and Josh "Thordaddy" Farst;
A bigot is a racist with a dog in the game. You don't qualify as a bigot if you don't care one way or another. Bigotry requires action. Just harboring racist attitudes doesn't cut it in bigot-land. You got to walk the walk, not just mumble the words. For example. The civility and ultimate usefulness of legendary Usenet group, soc.culture.african.american was destroyed by the active bigotry of racist flamers there who derailed every conversation they could. They came back time after time and acted out an agenda of bigotry. Not to complicate matters much, but it doesn't really matter if they believed in a theory of genetic supremacy, because nobody online in the forum ever showed their faces. It could not be proven that they were white and we were black. The point is that their destructive actions spoke for themselves. A bigot is not satisfied until the object of his scorn pays a price just for existing.
That's the Byrdeye/Thordaddy agenda here - and at every other Black authored blog - that they and their parasitic ilk seek to infiltrate and to damage.
The asians are quick to deny any access or standing whatsoever to racist trash.
Josh Farst: The banned poster is faking now as "thordaddy"
Author: Verita
Date: 07-09-03 04:06
Four posts under "thordaddy" appeared, and we traced these to Josh Farst, permanently banned from Asiawind.
Please do not respond to his post.
He will be banned.
But for some reason, many of us tolerate perpetration by this element up through the point of damaging the franchise. Hell, blackprof.com allowed itself to be utterly subverted by a handful of anonymous racist trolls.
Up until yesterday, I had serious misgivings about allowing racist trolls to perpetrate. Do like the asians do and just ban them and keep moving. Brother Sub has changed all of that and in the process, completely changed the game.
I believe what we've witnessed here is a clearcut evolutionary leap in the system of online global Black supremacy.
Sub has taken his domination of the bigot Byrdeye FAR beyond the applause-seeking realm - which we handily dominate - and into the realm of absolute, objective, and deeply personal execution.
Like I said upthread, I'd almost feel sorry for dood if he didn't come here with malice and bigotry on the brain. As it stands, I can't think of anybody more richly deserving of being unrecoverably devastated.
Byrdeye, if you can't come correct and answer the man's questions, you should consider yourself an anihilated non-entity in this sphere - for all time...,
Am I missing something here? Or was this just a self-indulgent excuse for Sub to beat his own meat, I mean chest?
submariner did come off a bit conceited. But what does AA have to do with it Byrdeye?
I don't think Sub sounded conceited, I think he sounded pissed. Only he was articulate with his anger.
Ain't nothing wrong with letting folks know what you've accomplished. Particulary when it's somebody who seems to have a vested interest in proving that black folks ain't shit, aint' gonna be shit and never were shit. Sometimes you need to set the record straight and that's what Submariner did.
Also, it's not about Submariner being a proxy for all black people. Black people have long hated the idea that each of us represents our entire race. Rather, it's about Submariner saying that he is an autonomous entity who has managed through hard work to accomplish some nice things in his life. He can take pride and comfort in those accomplishments, and he doesn't need to use his success to prove anything to anybody about black folks.
Byrdeye, on the other hand, seems to use every instance of black misbehavior to prove his larger theories about the genetic inferiority of black people. He seems to think that black misbehavior somehow justifies white superiority and by extension, his own superiority over black folks. Submariner simple said:
Show and prove white boy.
Ok folks, looks like Cnu has chosen to go e-Travis on me here to silence my honest opinions, in lieu of factual rebuttals and civilized debate. A tactic taken straight from the feminist playbook.
Now you know why there's "White flight"...
I will miss my dialogues with DV and most others here. However, I also don't feel like getting continually e-harassed and cyberstalked with every post. He already kicked me off his blog, now wants me out of this one. Apparently, there's not much room for anyone else with his ego in the room. Fine. Anyone who wants to continue discussions will be more than welcome at my blog. I'm simply not here for childish pissing contests or ad hominem trolling.
So let the record show that I did not come here with malice or an agenda. Simply my honest opinions - which have been relabelled as revolutionary during times of universal deceit. I actually inititally stumbled upon some of DV's posts on geopolitics and resonated with his incisive counterpoints to the lamestream media majority.
Thank you DV for being such a transcendant, wonderful host, bud!
Oh well, so much for diversity of opinion, tolerance and freedom of speech. Reality's a real bitch, isn't it? Enjoy your isolationist homogenous bubble world now, Cnu! Farewell, I'll be taking a welcome hiatus! The afterparty is moving back to tha burbs!
Oh yeah.
Byrdeye asked about Affirmative Action because in his world if a black person succeeds in anyway because of Affirmative Action, well they had an unfair advantage and since he didn't have that advantage it makes sense that he hasn't done what they've done.
This is of course bullshit. As a white male in America, Byrdeye has been the beneficiary of the greatest and longest running Affirmative Action program in the history of mankind. But, he ain't gonna admit that.
Byrdeye
Now that was a typical bitch move.
You quit because you can't handle the heat and then blame it on the black folks.
That's like straight out of the playbook.
Hell, blackprof.com allowed itself to be utterly subverted by a handful of anonymous racist trolls.
Here's what I don't get. It would be utterly impossible for a racist troll to derail a discussion if everyone ignored him.
I find it quite easy to ignore Byrdeye here... and Thordaddy, when he used to dwell at my spot. Eventually, he just quit hanging around.
The place to engage with white racists is at their gathering places (such as American Renaissance and White America.
I speak from experience when I say it's fun.
Don't stress over them; let them stress over you.
rotflmbao
Let the record show, when a bigot gets shanked, he don't go out like a man, rather, he runs, ducks, begs, cries, and goes out flailing just like the little panty-wearing punk beeyatch he knows himself to be...,
Now you know why there's "White flight"...
rotflmbao, ABSOLUTELY priceless...,
Byrdeye you're so gay that you don't even like boys. I'd bet that you keep Papa John's on speed dial for those nights when your mom decides not to cook.
Grow up and be a man. Get a wife and some kids, or at least date women that you haven't met online.
Since you're an advocator of a unique philosphy, what exactly are YOUR k-game credentials and why are YOU so reticent to enumerate them?
And while you're at it big upping Ron Paul, what are YOU doing to help make the dream a reality? You could probably intern for Paul, or if your game is tight enough you could even declare yourself a candidate. So what is it punk?
I got a suggestion for a DV poll. How many folks would NOT be surprised to learn that Byrdeye has a Jewish boss or lives at home with his mother.
Loozer. It's clear that you're embarrassed but you really should be ashamed. Your utter lack of self-confidence is not only apparent, it's real.
Thordaddy, when he used to dwell at my spot. Eventually, he just quit hanging around.
Farst quit your spot shortly after I outed him. Not very long thereafter, he got somebody to embed his name into an attack site as a deterrent to folks googling his monkey ass up looking for additional details.
Sure, IF he can first tell me why it's relevant?
It's official: You are a continental bullshitter of the highest order. Everyone who engages honestly in this space can now see your constitutional stupidity on full display.
If it's a strictly individual comparison/pissing contest - then why only single me out?
You were singled out because you are the most vocal and consistent peddler of racial essentialist bullshit on this entire blog. No one else was singled out because no one else engages in the type of skin color based hackneyed statements of determinism on the level that you do.
Why not everyone else in here too?
Because no one else rises to your unmatched level of epic bullshittery. 'Everyone else in here' is not given to obstructionist, retarded, pointless, essentialist ramblings that only serve to derail the conversations towards the trajectory of your peevish racialized axis which lacks a coherent endpoint. You're the guy who, whenever DV posts a picture of a brown-skinned female on the cover of a magazine, immediately chirps up about how the female isn't "full Black" and how the media does this and that and how "the Blacks" do this and that, and blah blah blah.
Stop it with the "woe is me, why only me" defense. Your selective amnesia regarding the comments which lead up to your public ostracism isn't going to fly since we have a permanent record of what you said which prompted Sub's context-specific reply to you.
It was this:
byrdeye said...
Ha, I might give you DV.
But if so many could, why haven't any? Instead, you typically get ones like Mugabe who make Dubya look like a compassionate genius...
That's why nearly every Black is trying to get out of the ghetto or Africa and migrate to non-Black K-zones, if they can. I seriously doubt any Black country or region has an immigration rate higher than its emigration rate (unless its from another Black country even worse off).
Sub's post was a reply to this and you know it, so for you to claim that his reply to you is somehow irrelevant and devoid of any preceding context is a flat-out lie.
Am I missing something here?
Yes, people are sick of your essentialist bullshit.
I will miss my dialogues with DV and most others here. [snip]
So let the record show that I did not come here with malice or an agenda. Simply my honest opinions - which have been relabelled as revolutionary during times of universal deceit. I actually inititally stumbled upon some of DV's posts on geopolitics and resonated with his incisive counterpoints to the lamestream media majority.
Epic cop-out.
Here's the thing. You obviously come to this blog because you're attracted to the alternative allure that it provides. You clearly like and agree with some of the things that DV has to say about Zionism and feminism etc., and this space gives you a platform to publicly sound off on your pet topics—but in between all your posts in which you're ranting about "dem Joos" and "dem Feminists" you're otherwise busy migrating to the other threads to spout your racial essentialist throat-spew. You want to sound off on the Zionists? Fine. You want to get on your soapbox about the feminists? Okay. But check your racial essentialism at the door. That's why everyone is piling on you at this point, but yet you simply don't understand why everyone is currently picking on little Byrdeye.
And to top it all off, you still (still) haven't addressed any of Sub's inquiries and are still going on about Bell Curve points as you make your exit with your tail between your legs.
Just answer the damn questions with a coherent reply. Show some backbone. You have no problem spouting off about "the Blacks" and what "the Blacks" do, but when someone asks You what You've done, you turn tail and run?
Please.
BTW, thanks Big Man. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Farst quit your spot shortly after I outed him.
True enough.
Now how the fuck did Mills insert himself in here as an "anti-racist" when he spots exactly the same white racist drivel as Birdie?
And ya'll Negroes who are beating up on Birdie for being what he can't help being - after all you can't blame a knucklehead for being a knucklehead - let Mills get away with that?
Come on folks. We can do better.
Fisher
I know Mills believes some of the same things that Byrdeye believes about black folks and their inherent intellectual inferiority.
However, he typically keeps that shit to himself.
I don't have a problem with a man believing what he wants to believe, it's just irksome when you spout those idiotic beliefs every chance you get. So, that's why I don't have bone to pick with Mills.
He's welcome to his belief system, just like everybody else here. At least he doesn't blame all the failures of white people on the evil blacks and their Jewish overlords.
That's some pussy shit right there.
David,
You know you ready to renounce that bell curve nonsense. Go head on magne - it'll be good for your soul.
Once you recant and release that youthful blemish on your intellectual CV, the august establishment of global Black supremacy can expunge it from your permanent record, re-issue your credentials, restore your double-0 license - and get you back in the global k-game in good standing.
Whadda ya say?
Big Man...
"However, he typically keeps that shit to himself."
Sorry, Bro, but no he doesn't.
Moreover, in contrast to Birdie, Mills shenanigans actually did have an historic effect on black folks in this country. He functioned as the useful "black" idiot that enabled the top echelons of the music industry to systematically not only destroy positive black Hip Hop, but allowed them to imbue the "black folks are to kill black folks" meme into Hip Hop. Hip Hop being the greatest cultural force on the planet since Bepop.
Moreover, he was also the enabler of the famous Sister Souljah moment which Clinton used to win his presidential race by pandering to white fears of black folks.
Mills is a much more dangerous cat than Birdie could ever be.
If there is such a thing as "race" and Sub is a credit to his, and Birdie a discredit to his, then, assuming Mills is black, he's a traitor to his.
Can you objectively prove any of those allegations?
Nulan...
"Can you objectively prove any of those allegations?"
Sure
Outstanding!
Useful idiot is beyond dispute. However, what you've described rises damn near the level of Architect of the demise of conscious Hip Hop - rather than just a convenient pebble - trying to grouse a paycheck - and thrown along with several thousand others at that time.
Looking forward to the history lesson. Thanks.
Nulan...
"what you've described rises damn near the level of Architect of the demise of conscious Hip Hop"
Oh, he wasn't the architect. Just the useful idiot. I'll get into it sometime soon when I have enough time. Though you might want to look up some of the exchanges I had with my old colleague Bill Stephney when he was host on Blackprof as well as various exchanges with Mills on the Assault and on Mills' blog if you have the time and patience.
Better yet, Boo Boo, you can search for the rare third edition of my fanzine, UNCUT FUNK, in which I wrote at length about l'affaire Griff. Including the time I shared the stage with him at Howard University.
Perhaps I'll digitize that piece in time for the 20th anniversary of my interview with Professor Griff. That'll be in early May.
More free fucking history for you sideline spectators.
Jockamo fee nah nay.
I'll get into it sometime soon when I have enough time.
I must be pretty damn dangerous indeed if you're putting off my treason trial to some distant point when you'll "have enough time."
And whatchu mean enough time, Fish? Do you have a fuckin' JOB? I'd be curious to know how a middle-aged, Yale-educated black nationalist makes his living.
Mills...
"Do you have a fuckin' JOB? I'd be curious to know how a middle-aged, Yale-educated black nationalist makes his living."
I'm rich, bitch.
^ But no gig though, right?
{{shaking head}}
rotflmbao.....,
Mills...
"But no gig though, right?"
Mills. Is it your "white" genes that make you so extraordinarily intelligent and perceptive?
I got the hard-earned luxury of doing whatever I wanna do whenever I wanna do it. And I don't have to pucker up my lips to do it.
By the by. Does Simon wipe before or after you do your J.O.B?
I got the hard-earned luxury of doing whatever I wanna do whenever I wanna do it.
Ah. Cool. So what was that buuullshit about not having "enough time" to prove that I'm a race traitor?
Sounds to me, Fish, like you ain't got fuck else to do on any given day.
Mills...
"So what was that buuullshit about not having 'enough time' to prove that I'm a race traitor?"
Because I'm doing something else right now. You ain't my priority. Mills.
Ok. David Mills.
Getting a bit off subject...
Since you are an expert on racism and anti-racism, lemme ask you this Mills.
We've got two groups or "races".
Group(A) and group(B).
Person(a) is a member of group(A) and person(b) is a member of group(B).
Person(a) is a murderer and murders person(aa) who is also a member of group(A) and then murders person(b) who is a member of group(B).
Person(a) is to be judged and punished by a court of law the members of which all are members of group(A). This court(A) concludes as follows: The murder of person(aa) is a capital crime and therefore person(a) is to be executed. The murder of person(b), while it indeed is a crime, is not a capital crime because person(b) is not a member of group(A). The court(A) finds:
(1) no one else in the physical realm but court(A) (that is solely a court made up of members of group(A)) has the right to pass judgment on person(a).
(2) That court(A) only has jurisdiction over the crime of person(a) murdering person(aa) or any other member of group(A).
(3) That while court(A) acknowledges that the murder of person(b) by person(a) was prohibited and a crime, court(A) (or anyone else in the physical realm) can not punish person(a) for murdering person(b).
Is that racism?
^ Eat a dick, bitch.
Mills...
"Eat a dick, bitch"
My, what's with the constant homo-erotic references?
Now, Mills. We live in a meritocracy, yes?
So, let's look at you in that context.
You are, without a doubt, a talented writer. Right? David Simon is a talented writer as well. Correct?
Now. David Simon is quite a few rungs above you in power and monetary remuneration in this business. Also correct?
David Simon employs you on his projects. Right?
Now let's look at this logically. Either
(a) David Simon is not up to the task of writing and needs you, that is, another writer to write for him
or
(b) David Simon is up to the task of writing and does not need you, that is, another writer to write for him.
If (a) is true, then you have enriched David Simon in exchange for a, over the years, inferior position.
If (b) is true then David Simon is doing charity work when it comes to you as (if we stipulate (b) to be true) you are an inferior talent to his.
So which is it, David, (a) or (b)?
If (a) is true, why have you not landed that on that super-producer rung in the entertainment business after all these years yet?
If (b) is true, why are you letting yourself be the recipient of what you would call affirmative action? The very thing you find so abhorrent in others?
Because I'm doing something else right now. You ain't my priority. Mills.
Oh really, Fish?
Mills, what's up? Can't get those brain cells working to answer these simple questions? You think your "black" genes might be kickin' in and keepin' your mind foggy?
Can't get those brain cells working to answer these simple questions?
Get a job, Michael. It'll make you feel productive, and it'll set a proper example for the young'uns.
As for Simon... Simon chose to collaborate with me for the same reason YOU wanted to collaborate with me on a screenplay, Fish: immense respect for my talent as a storyteller.
Sorry I decided not to work with you on that idea, Michael. Now how long do you intend to hold a grudge??
Mills...
"As for Simon... Simon chose to collaborate with me for the same reason YOU wanted to collaborate with me on a screenplay, Fish: immense respect for my talent as a storyteller."
So it's option (a) then, is it?
Now, why then, given that it's option a, have you not achieved career success within the entertainment business that Simon has achieved?
I mean we ARE living in a meritocracy, of course, in which (in the case of Hollywood) being a white Jew has NOTHING to do with success. No?
David, You know you ready to renounce that bell curve nonsense. ...
Craig, I need not renounce anything. From my point of view, it’s the religious-like belief of egalitarianists which flies in the face of common sense.
Play along with me for a second. You believe that human sub-groups developing separately over thousands of years... in different environments, subjected to different “selective pressures”... nonetheless today have identical cognitive capacities?
Okay, cool. You then need to explain, Craig, why the Zulus – possessing the identical cognitive tools as the Arabs, the Han Chinese and the Anglo-Saxons – never created a culture based on literacy.
Because one thing we can see from our 21st-century perch is that the culture of literacy and its outgrowths – higher mathematics, the scientific method, the modern university, to name a few – have elevated human civilization.
Quite apart from the question of the heritability of intelligence, isn’t it obvious that the reason Western European nations prosper and most black African nations don’t prosper... is because of Europe’s culture of literacy?
Mills, what inferior-cognitive-abilities-having sub-group are you part of that you have not been able to achieve a professional status and remunerative success in comparison to the white Jewish chap David Simon and the many others like him in the entertainment business?
^ Get a job, Fish. Do your part to help the economy bounce back.
Now, the flaw in your line of argument is so obvious as to render you pathetic.
(a) Simon is a better writer than I am.
(b) There are many white Jewish chaps in Hollywood who haven't achieved the professional status and remunerative success that I have. Because I'm a better writer than they are.
(c) And then there's luck... one of the most underestimated forces in the universe.
Craig, I need not renounce anything. From my point of view, it’s the religious-like belief of egalitarianists which flies in the face of common sense.
Silly rabbit, I don't know any egalitarianists. But I know that by your "common sense" ideology, if my measured IQ is 60 points higher than your own, and, I can pound you in a fist fight like a two dollar drum - then you're a grossly inferior specimen.
Given the immense gulf separating our respective organic means and possibilities, by your elite ideological standard David, anything you have to say should be beneath my contempt. Why on earth should I even bother to correspond with you on any subject at all? What do you suppose you could actually teach me? Seriously, by your own "common sense" measure, why do you even bother to live?
That's the natural and inevitable extension of what you term "common sense". It's actually nothing more than Platonism.
While egalitarianism has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I've ever written or said - because I'm about as red in tooth and claw as they come - where you and I differ is that I've never bought into the Platonic scam. So let's dispense once and for all with your bizarre imaginal notions about my ideological leanings and instead be more frank about your own.
Those simple ideological facts notwithstanding, I've repeatedly demonstrated that IQ does not measure cognitive capacity or capability and that no commentator I've ever encountered in all the many years I've had these arguments has ever once done a credible job of articulating the specific functional elements of which intelligence is allegedly comprised. So, to take take a test of cultural competency as anything more than one's exposure to and assimilation of a specific culture's information at an early age, is simply unintelligent.
Play along with me for a second. You believe that human sub-groups developing separately over thousands of years... in different environments, subjected to different “selective pressures”... nonetheless today have identical cognitive capacities?
Absolutely. Those thousands of years don't equate to very many generations. If you're talking about genuine genetic and epigenetic drift, it takes a lot longer than a couple hundred generations to make a meaningful difference - particularly given the human genetic bottlenecks shown to have happened as recently as ten thousand years or so ago. The very fact that no human pairing results in "mule" offspring bears out the underlying point in question.
What you and the other selfish gene theorists have utterly failed to take into consideration is multi-level selection and epigenetics. Please peep some of my recent posts at subrealism. There's yet another level of explication in the multi-level selection front, but I'm not sure that people are grasping the game theoretical nuances of simple multi-level selection quite yet. To go any deeper at this juncture would be massive overkill.
Okay, cool. You then need to explain, Craig, why the Zulus – possessing the identical cognitive tools as the Arabs, the Han Chinese and the Anglo-Saxons – never created a culture based on literacy.
Why do I need to do that David?
The difference between ideograms (what chinese "write" with and phonetic alphabets (what anglos and arabs write with)) is more jarring than the difference between literate and non-literate from a purely cognitive perspective. They're not at all interchangeable. Moreover, the Egyptians wrote using four distinct representational systems, including two ideogrammatic (hieroglyphic) ones which remain opaque to modern understanding because of the quite jarring difference in the mentality of the ancient egyptian people and their utilization of something which has only survived in occult circles and is now sometimes referred to as "the language of form". For example, gothic cathedrals and illuminated alchemical treatises are written in "the language of form". Why did someone like Sir Isaac Newton spend the better part of his life and cognitive energy in pursuit of the illusive mentality of the ancients? (Newton, as I hope you know was a dedicated alchemist)
What was it that the parableists of the new testament meant by "metanoia" (often mistranslated as "repentance") why the emphasis on parables and a non-ideogrammatic language of form? What is it that all of these disparate peoples have striven for?
One final question along these lines. What highly isolated non-literate people is regarded as the greatest natural linguists on the face of the earth? Why so?
Because one thing we can see from our 21st-century perch is that the culture of literacy and its outgrowths – higher mathematics, the scientific method, the modern university, to name a few – have elevated human civilization.
Really? How so? Higher mathematics, the scientific method, the modern university, plumbing, musical notation, and host of other innovations were brought to Dark Ages europe by way of Andalusian invaders. Those invaders in their turn were maintaining the cultural innovations of the ancient Greeks. The ancient Greeks in their turn were maintaining and transmitting the cultural innovations of pharaonic Egypt.
Quite apart from the question of the heritability of intelligence, isn’t it obvious that the reason Western European nations prosper and most black African nations don’t prosper... is because of Europe’s culture of literacy?
No. What is obvious to me is that ruthless imperialism, cheap energy, and the industrial revolution (industry dependent upon cheap energy) are the historical foundation stones of euro-hegemony. What is equally obvious to me is the ecological and demographic unsustainability of the current world order.
Do you happen to have any Pauwels and Bergier in your personal library? Have you ever read Julian Jaynes Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind? If you haven't done so, let me most enthusiastically recommend Jaynes, it will permanently alter your view of cognition, intelligence, and consciousness - and then peep some Pauwels and Bergier to catch a glimpse of the rise and fall and rise and fall of civilizations.
Too much of what you believe is from within a very shallow, specific altertumswissenschaft spectrum of practice with its origins and motivations deeply rooted in providing moral justification for brutal european imperialism not easily reconciled with Christian ethics and erasing the histories and legacies of every other people in the process.
Mills...
"(c) And then there's luck... one of the most underestimated forces in the universe."
Mills. Since you're apparently into statistics, being you like to cite bell curves and such, read a book or two on the mathematics of probability.
The long-term clustering of certain self-defined groups of individuals in socio-political and/or socio-cultural settings on the basis of "luck" (i.e. random distribution) is probabilistically close to impossible.
Seriously, David.
Did you take basic statistical and probability theory in college?
Maybe logic classes?
Maybe a bit of Wittgenstein?
Why on earth should I even bother to correspond with you on any subject at all?
Good question, Boo Boo. And yet you keep pratting on, don't you?
Higher mathematics, the scientific method, the modern university, plumbing, musical notation, and host of other innovations were brought to Dark Ages europe by way of Andalusian invaders. Those invaders in their turn were maintaining the cultural innovations of the ancient Greeks. The ancient Greeks in their turn were maintaining and transmitting the cultural innovations of pharaonic Egypt.
So... how come most black African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures? And by not doing so, weren’t they destined to be outcompeted by literate civilizations whose accumulated wisdom would lead to oceanic navigation and (eventually) proto-globalization?
... and erasing the histories and legacies of every other people in the process.
Erasing the who in the what now? Everything you happen to know about the histories of African civilizations (and of Amerindian empires too, for that matter) was written in the white man’s language.
Mills...
"So... how come most black African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures?"
Well, that one is obvious. They were unlucky. 'Cause then there's luck... one of the most underestimated forces in the universe.
Good question, Boo Boo. And yet you keep pratting on, don't you?
It wasn't a challenge David. So drop your hackles. My point was that YOUR Platonic ideology - when carried to its unnatural end - would compel me to treat you according to the measurable and demonstrable gaps in our respective capabilities, and thus by extension, our measured and demonstrable "worth".
On what political, ideological, moral, or personal basis should I make an exception for you. Your worth is highly suspect on the measured terms you consider definitive. What kind of hypocrisy enables you to pretend that you have some innate worth that you're unwilling to accord to supposedly "unequal" others?
So... how come most black African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures?
Answer my question first, what people comprise the human race's most measurably and demonstrably gifted natural linguists? How do you suppose this "trait" is measured?
And by not doing so, weren’t they destined to be outcompeted by literate civilizations whose accumulated wisdom would lead to oceanic navigation and (eventually) proto-globalization?
Really? I guess you're not familiar with the Piri Reis map?
So... how come most black African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures? And by not doing so, weren’t they destined to be outcompeted by literate civilizations whose accumulated wisdom would lead to oceanic navigation and (eventually) proto-globalization?
Didn't you see Ivan Van Sertima back in the day at Howard? Haven't you ever read "They Came Before Columbus" or just looked at the Olmec heads and seen for yourself what they clearly evidence?
Erasing the who in the what now? Everything you happen to know about the histories of African civilizations (and of Amerindian empires too, for that matter) was written in the white man’s language.
The bulk of it, of any deep consequence, happens to have been written in French. You know, those same nasty gallic bastards who endeavored their most monumental Parisian construction(s) on a site formerly consecrated to the Egyptian goddess Isis and built by the Latinate Roman pre-cursors to the Gauls worshipping one of the primary neteru of their African pre-cursors.
Your point David, if you actually had one, would be?
Answer my question first, what people comprise the human race's most measurably and demonstrably gifted natural linguists? How do you suppose this "trait" is measured?
I don't know the answer to that one, Craig. I'd be most curious to hear your answer... particularly if it would provide some insight as to why most black African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures.
Mills. First off you clearly have no knowledge whatsoever of world history in general and the history of the African continent in particular. But most importantly you are banding terms around that you have not and can not define. For example "white" man, and "black" Africa.
What exactly is a black African?
See, you could not in the past and can not now define the same.
In any case. The concept of writing as we understand it today was first developed in Southern Kemet, which is Africa. From there the concept and the various forms spread by trade and conquest into other geographical regions.
Northern and Central Europeans neither developed the modern alphabet nor the modern numbering system.
Those few Europeans that learned to read and write got there by an accident of history.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with a supposed "racial cognitive ability".
There are three possibilities here, Mills. Seriously.
(a) You are truly too stupid to think logically.
or
(b) You are a racist.
or
(c) You are a racist and you are too stupid to think logically.
To thereby
The concept of writing as we understand it today was first developed in Southern Kemet, which is Africa.
Deep. So how come most African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures?
Mills...
"Deep. So how come most African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures?"
Which "African peoples", beside the Zulu, exactly are you talking about, Mills?
Fisher,
There's always the D.) of painfully and inexcusably ignorant...,
jes sayin.
I don't know the answer to that one, Craig. I'd be most curious to hear your answer... particularly if it would provide some insight as to why most black African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures.
Having now established that Black african people did in fact develop not only the very earliest systems of writing, and furthermore, developed every style of writing from the ideogram to the phonetic alphabet - the flippant part of your question can be dismissed as moot. Hasn't anyone ever tugged your sleeve about the Wolof origins of the semitic languages, what used to be called Hamito-Semitic languages, and by extension, Hamito-Semitic peoples?
You DO know what Hamito alludes to, right? (and no, I'm not talking about the salt cured swine on your next mufalata sammich)
As for the answer to the question of the world's greatest natural linguists, there are only a handful of places you could possibly learn that, and there, it would have had to have come from one man -the late Kenneth Hale. Thankfully, I was blessed to have Ken Hale as a teacher. Now before you commence to worshipping at the altar of the "white man" in general - consider that Hale's exceptional gifts were universally acknowledged.
The concept of high-order language play and the capacity to speak in excess of one hundred dialects is unique to the neolithic "aboriginal" peoples of Australia. Hale humbly acknowledged the capacity of the Walbiri to do what he could do as a polyglot, except instead of being an artifact of exceptional individual genius - his unique capabilities were evident in these people as a living cultural universal. They were - and to my knowledge continue to be - a culture centered on comparatively supernatural linguistic high achievement.
Of course, I'm sure you'll think that the beneficent Botany Bay invaders had to enlighten the benighted neoliths. On the contrary, "aboriginals" ascertained the meaning of english speakers and approached the early invaders with a high degree of facility in the english language given only the barest exposure at a remove.
Which "African peoples", beside the Zulu, exactly are you talking about, Mills?
The Mende, the Mandinka, the Yoruba, the Hausa, the Bakongo, the Shona, the Kikuyu... to name some.
Having now established that Black african people did in fact develop not only the very earliest systems of writing, and furthermore, developed every style of writing from the ideogram to the phonetic alphabet - the flippant part of your question can be dismissed as moot.
Read me closely, Boo Boo, for I express myself precisely.
I wrote "developed and MAINTAINED literate CULTURES."
You cats are always interesting.
Why developed and maintained?
What is the significance of maintenance as it relates to innate intelligence?
I really would like to know, not trying to be snide.
The Mende, the Mandika, and the Hausa developed and maintained literate cultures, Mills.
Why David Mills, you madcap...,
If I read you any closer, you'd be complaining like a little beehatch about how uncomfortable the anal probe is that I've stuck into your brainstem...,
Frivolous applause-seeking aside, how many thousands of years does the Egypto-Nubian-Coptic complex of peoples have to maintain literate cultures in order to satisfy your criteria for maintenance?
Given that the old kingdom goes back to nearly 5000 BC by mainstream standards (and possibly another 7000+ years earlier than that to a pre-sands Egypt if you attend to the watermarks on the Sphinx)- why don't you tell me what other literate culture compares to the continuous span of these Africans?
btw - there IS an answer to this kwestin, as well - but I've got a dollar at paypal that says you not only don't know the answer, but couldn't find it given all the resources of the web at your fingertips, even if your life depended on it.
The Mende, the Mandika, and the Hausa developed and maintained literate cultures, Mills.
Do tell.
What is the significance of maintenance as it relates to innate intelligence?
Excellent kwestin Big Man, particularly given the widespread illiteracy of european peoples until long after the process of moorish uplift began in earnest.
I'm wondering, what were some of the great works in the european canon of literature prior to the Canterbury Tales?
In this clear and well-written book, Jonathan Lyons delves into all sorts of musty corners to show how Arabic science percolated into the Latin world in the middle ages and helped civilise a rude society.
The House of Wisdom: How the Arabs Transformed Western Civilization
He tells how Arab advances in astronomy, mathematics, engineering, navigation, geography, medicine, architecture, chemistry, gardening, finance and verse passed into Europe by way of the Crusader kingdoms, Sicily and Spain and prepared the ground for both the Renaissance and the scientific advances of the 16th and 17th centuries. This infiltration of ideas has left traces in our language, from alcohol, algebra and algorithm to the Arabic names of the bright stars Betelgeuse and Aldebaran.
With the fall of the Roman empire in the west, Europe lost touch with much of its classical inheritance and was isolated by the Arab invasions from the Byzantine empire where some ancient learning survived. Lyons recounts how early medieval Christendom was unable accurately to measure the time of day for monastic offices, or fix the date of Easter, while dogmatic schemes of scripture and hierarchy left little scope for natural science. Aristotle's influence was confined to the logic and rhetoric of the schools. Bishop Isidore of Seville promulgated the idea that the Earth was flat.
In contrast, when the Arabs conquered Iraq in the first half of the seventh century AD, they came upon living schools of Hellenistic learning in natural science and medicine, along with Indian mathematics and astronomy that had come by way of Iran. Systematic reasoning, driven out of Muslim jurisprudence in favour of precedents from the Prophet's life and conduct, found a new field of inquiry in ancient geography and cosmology. After the founding of Baghdad in AD762, the Abbasid caliphs established a library and a team of translators at the Beit al-Hikma, the "House of Wisdom" of Lyons's title.
I'm wondering, what were some of the great works in the european canon of literature prior to the Canterbury Tales?
Hello? How about the plays of Sophocles and Aristophanes?
Why developed and maintained? What is the significance of maintenance as it relates to innate intelligence?
Because maintenance is key in regards to which civilizations prospered, Big Man. It ain't about who created the first pictographic writing system. That's a trivia question.
It's about which cultures spread their influence across oceans through the power of their accumulated wisdom, passed down from generation to generation... built upon by each generation... in writing.
What such cultures as the Arabs, the Han Chinese and the Anglo-Saxons have in common is the high cultural value placed on learning, on education, on the written word.
As I said earlier, this is a matter of historical observation separate from the question of the heritability of intelligence.
But what I wonder (and I have no way of knowing) is whether the cognitive abilities of a population are affected by its being literate or illiterate. Get my point?
Did a 2,500-year uninterrupted tradition of reading and writing actually make the Chinese smarter than other human sub-groups?
I don't know. But it probably didn't hurt.
Idiot...,
What original literate cultural productions bridged the 1800 year gap separating the ancient greeks from the benighted europeans?
also, when it comes to those ancient greeks, what do you make of the highly unusual central asian aiodoi oral tradition that preceded the first written works attributed to Homer?
You DO know about the aiodoi, don't you?
Mills...
"Do tell."
Don't tell me you never heard of the Universtity of Sankore, Mills?
Because maintenance is key in regards to which civilizations prospered, Big Man. It ain't about who created the first pictographic writing system. That's a trivia question.
Your intelligence a trivia question and as you've shown this evening, inversely proportional to how much you write David.
You can no more show a causal correlation between literacy and prosperity than you can show that you have a woman.
Please just stifle yourself and go off to a quiet corner and read Guns, Germs, and Steel and make a sincere effort to borrow a clue from someone who's gone to the trouble of actually studying and thinking about the issues in question.
Mills...
"through the power of their accumulated wisdom"
Such influence is usually spread by conquest, Mills, not by "accumulated wisdom".
I told you it was D.) Fisher...,
The void in Mill's academic preparation has left him woefully susceptible to all kinds of ignorant and fallacious nonsense.
Dude simply doesn't have the chops to make his way through pseudo-science, contrived history, and self-debasing racial mythology.
Don't tell me you never heard of the Universtity of Sankore, Mills?
And what language was studied at Sankore, Fish? It was Arabic.
That university was a product of Arab Muslim culture.
... make a sincere effort to borrow a clue from someone who's gone to the trouble of actually studying and thinking about the issues in question.
Since you're better read than me, Boo Boo, could you please explain why most African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures?
I doubt it had anything to do with guns, germs or steel. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Mills...
"And what language was studied at Sankore, Fish? It was Arabic.
That university was a product of Arab Muslim culture."
Mills, what language was used at my alma mater, the Ruprecht Karls University of Heidelberg, Germany?
Mills, what language was used at my alma mater, the Ruprecht Karls University of Heidelberg, Germany?
Uhhh... Zulu?
Since you're better read than me, Boo Boo, could you please explain why most African peoples never developed and maintained literate cultures?
nah stupid...,
I'm tired of ladling the cream of diligently accumulated knowledge into the empty rotten pumpkin sitting on your shoulders....,
Mills...
"Uhhh... Zulu?"
It wasn't German, Mills. And that University is among the oldest on the European continent.
Fact is, Mills. Neither Germany, France, nor England (one Chaucer does not a literary tradition make) had a literary tradition worth speaking about until more than a century after the invention of Gutenberg printing press.
Neither the Germans, nor the English, nor the French made use of any native writing forms. Why? Because they never developed any on their own. Unless you wanna count the Germanic runes (which had their origins in the Phoenician alphabet, which in turn had their origins in Kemeten writing systems) which fell into disuse really quickly.
By the way. Both Phonicians and Kemeten were Africans. Indeed what you would describe as "black" Africans.
nah stupid...,
I'm tired of ladling the cream of diligently accumulated knowledge into the empty rotten pumpkin sitting on your shoulders....,
Then explain it for the benefit of the other readers, Boo Boo.
In the Late Middle Ages, students at the University of Heidelberg read and wrote Latin. Today, Germany has a literacy rate of 99 percent.
In the Late Middle Ages, students at the University of Sankore read and wrote Arabic. Today, Mali has a literacy rate of less than 50 percent.
See what I mean about the importance of MAINTAINING a literate culture?
Mills...
"In the Late Middle Ages, students at the University of Sankore read and wrote Arabic. Today, Mali has a literacy rate of less than 50 percent."
Now what event, exactly, pray tell, did subsequently interrupt the socio-political development of Mali and the entire Western Sudan region - all the way from the coast of West Africa to what is now known as Chad?
Now what event, exactly, pray tell, did subsequently interrupt the socio-political development of Mali...
Well, the decline of the Mali Empire had numerous causes. Invasion and conquest of the north by the Tuareg... the repeated raiding of Timbuktu by the Mossi... internal dynastic intrigues... mismanagement of the gold supply...
Any of this what you had in mind, Fish?
Mills...
"Well, the decline of the Mali Empire had numerous causes. Invasion and conquest of the north by the Tuareg... the repeated raiding of Timbuktu by the Mossi... internal dynastic intrigues... mismanagement of the gold supply..."
I wasn't talking about the Mali Empire, I was talking about Mali the region and the entire Western Sudan. That would include the Maline, the Wolof, the Sosso, Kanem-Bornu, etc.
That region came to its demise with the destruction of the Songhay empire by the Sultan of Morocco and the almost simultaneous beginning of the most ferocious onslaught of the European transatlantic slave trade, which culminated in the destruction of the University of Sankore by the French who shipped of its invaluable ancient libraries off to France (those they didn't destroy). Tens of thousands of manuscripts had to be taken by the African scholars and hidden from the foreigners. It is only recently that many of the manuscripts have been taken out of hiding.
Nothing comparable to the 500 year Maafa ever occurred in Germany so as to disrupt any significant intellectual development.
That would include the Malinke...
Look at these three clowns.
You have Michael "I am not a member of a biological black race" Fisher.
You have the two faces of Craig. He can't decide if the material is all that exists even though he chastises anyone who forces him to concede the shortcomings of his pseudo-science.
Both these fools try and sell their own non-racist racist system of white supremacy.
Fisher tries to desconstruct race and claim it non-existent because it's not scientifically verifiable while spewing the GSWS (Global System of White Supremacy). Such a thing, by Fisher's own logic, is but a social construct. And because social constructs aren't scientifically verifiable then they don't exist. So there is racism and white supremacy, but there is no race or even white race. How's that work?
Nulan tries to give genetic credence to "white supremacy" via a theory called "Dopamine Hegemony." Such a genetic understanding gives rise to the idea that "white supremacy" can be altered genetically and should be altered out of existence. But does "white supremacy" have an existence to begin with? If so, is not Nulan's inquiry an attempt to make white supremacy legitimate? His is a post-Darwinian eugenics program seeking the material and non-material roots of "White Supremacy."
Then there is Mills. A sellout of the highest order as affirmed by two loathesome characters.
But to all three of ya... Provide some of those "racist" quotes. There should be something you can put in these posts to substantiate your claims.
Three jive-talkin' hustlers!!! LOL!
Mills
Thanks for answering my question.
But, it seems like you're arguing that it's not about having the innate intelligence to develop a written language, it's about having the ability to maintain and protect that written language for centuries that proves intelligence.
Or, you're arguing that quite possibly the fact that certain cultures have developed and maintained written language is the reason for their success in subjugating the world, which is proof of their intelligence.
Now, I'm not as well read as any of you cats, but I do have a good grasp of logic.
Logically speaking, I don't see how those two arguments work.
In the first instance, the maintenance of something takes a far different skill set and intelligence than the creation of it. Some folks have the innate ability to create something amazing, but do not have facility to maintain that creation and see that it's used to it's best means. Throughout history we've seen that with artists and scientists for centuries. They can create or invent, but they lack the organizational skills, or concern to see that their creations are protected moving forward.
On the second point I think it's a little weird that you're admitting that you cannot prove their is connection between maintaining literacy and superior intelligence, but you're assuming it's true because of the fact that Europeans and others have conquered the world.
European conquest is tied to a whole host of factors outside of innate intelligence and it just seems weird that you would seize on the one, possible factor as proof of your argument about the inferior intelligence of black people. That doesn't seem logical.
Looking at your two arguments, it's almost like you've decided that black folks are inferior and then you attempted to find stuff to prove that point. In doing so, you've made some amazing assumptions and leaps of faith. Now, I understand that we all do this, but it seems strange that you would be willing to make these sort of leaps to prove that black people are genetically inferior, despite the fact that there is an equally compelling set of facts that could prove the opposite.
That's just a weird choice for a black person to make.
Big Man, I appreciate your respectful engagement on this topic, which is, without a doubt, the “third rail” of racial politics... the thing most black folks (and all white liberals) dare not touch.
Let me respond in detail, which I hope will be clarifying.
... it seems like you're arguing that... it's about having the ability to maintain and protect that written language for centuries that proves intelligence.
Not quite. My guess (and I’m not advocating any of this from the rooftops; I hash it out here because DV has created a safe space for wrestling with taboos)... my guess is that the development and maintenance of a written language – that a high cultural value placed on literacy by a society – bolsters intelligence within that society.
(Consider Jews, the so-called “People of the Book.”)
... I think it's a little weird that you're admitting that you cannot prove their is connection between maintaining literacy and superior intelligence, but you're assuming it's true because of the fact that Europeans and others have conquered the world.
No, Big Man, I’m assuming it’s true because Europeans (or, for the sake of this discussion, “white people”) cured polio, harnessed electricity, put a man on the moon, built skyscrapers and decoded the human genome... civilizational accomplishments which would’ve been impossible for the Zulu or the Navajo.
... it's almost like you've decided that black folks are inferior and then you attempted to find stuff to prove that point.
Have I ever used the word “inferior”? No. Never.
I don’t classify human beings (or human cultures) as “inferior” or “superior.” Never have. That's not my trip.
But I do think in terms of competitive advantage and competitive disadvantage... regarding individuals as well as cultures. In American society, an individual with a measured IQ of 130 has a competitive advantage over an individual with a measured IQ of 95.
This does NOT mean that one or the other of those individuals is “superior” or “inferior” in terms of human worth.
Likewise, I don’t think it’s inherently “racist” to presume that one big reason why Japan prospers and Haiti does not is because of the “competitive advantage” imbued by the high average intelligence of the Japanese people.
Is it really difficult to follow my reasoning here?
Big Man,
The lead-in to what pumpkinhead jones wrote discloses the essential lie running through all of what follows;
which is, without a doubt, the “third rail” of racial politics... the thing most black folks (and all white liberals) dare not touch.
There's no such thing as "racial politics" absent the Platonic objective of speciating, oppressing, and rationalizing the speciation and oppression of one group by another. Everything that emanates from that quarter is value-laden and intrinsically evil.
Do yourself a favor brah and grab a copy of Stephen Chorover's From Genesis to Genocide, easily the best and most comprehensive deconstruction of the pseudo-science marshalled as a last immoral defense of racist beliefs and institutions.
Published long before the amateurish last ditch arcanum of the bell curve, FGTG recounts the elite design and proliferation of every aspect of "racial politics" from the 19th century up through the present day. I think you'll find most interesting the ways in which racial pseudo-science was marshalled with a vengeance during the late 60's and early 70's and the substantial impact it asserted on political policy in America.
Everything that emanates from that quarter is value-laden and intrinsically evil.
Does this mean, Boo Boo, that we are simply not supposed to notice that certain types of cultures accomplish things such as eradicating polio and placing machines on the surface of Mars... and others do not (and cannot)?
Seems kinda punkish to me.
Mills...
"my guess is that the development and maintenance of a written language – that a high cultural value placed on literacy by a society – bolsters intelligence within that society."
Looks to me like you are making a cover-your-ass strategic retreat here. Your previous argumentation consistently has been that you suppose that there is a genetic cause for the supposed lower IQ of "black" people. You now ascribe the same to a socio-cultural factor - access to literacy. Which is an entirely different thing. Which socio-cultural factor was a result of socio-political developments.
Now which is it, Mills. Biology or socio-politics?
Mills...
"In American society, an individual with a measured IQ of 130 has a competitive advantage over an individual with a measured IQ of 95."
That's quite an assumption. You got empirical evidence for that?
The historical truth is that in American society the competitive advantage lay not in IQ, but in the category "white" as opposed to "non-white".
Now which is it, Mills. Biology or socio-politics?
That's the crux of the biscuit, MF. Who-da-fuck knows?
But since it's just you 'n' me bullshitting... I'll tell you what I think. I think it could go either way.
Maybe smarter human sub-groups developed and maintained literate cultures because they were smarter.
Or maybe certain human sub-groups got smarter because they were products of literate cultures... where the high value placed on intelligence (we can presume) influenced mating decisions... as with the rabbinical families of medieval Judaism.
The openness of the question is why I support the study of genetics and intelligence within the Academy... whereas the Craig Nulans of the world would rather label it "intrinsically evil."
Does this mean, Boo Boo, that we are simply not supposed to notice that certain types of cultures accomplish things such as eradicating polio and placing machines on the surface of Mars... and others do not (and cannot)?
Seems kinda punkish to me.
Seems vastly more punkish to me to leave out the full scope of the "accomplishments" of said cultures pumpkinhead, to wit;
20th century hemoclysm
eradication of species
anthropogenic deforestation
population overshoot
warsocialism
deception as the foundation of political ethology
Integrity and merit are anathema to the likes of one such as yourself who has personally gobbled up sufficient resources to sustain the lives of 100 people in the developing world and in return has produced absolutely nothing useful or of lasting value to show for that consumption.
The openness of the question is why I support the study of genetics and intelligence within the Academy... whereas the Craig Nulans of the world would rather label it "intrinsically evil."
The history of the alleged "study" of genetics and intelligence shows not a single scientifically valid or useful result.
On the other hand, it is trivially easy to trace the intrinsically evil and value-laden ends to which the alleged "study" of genetics and intelligence have been put in service to racial politics and systems of murderous and oppressive elite rule.
Seriously Big Man, just read Chorover's book and don't hold your breath waiting to hear either a persuasive or benevolent rationale for the humanitarian aims of racial pseudo-science.
I'm looking for the book, homie. I prefer to get mine from the library, but I may have to purchase it.
... don't hold your breath waiting to hear either a persuasive or benevolent rationale for the humanitarian aims of racial pseudo-science.
I demand neither "benevolent rationales" nor "humanitarian aims," Boo Boo. I seek the truth.
Seems vastly more punkish to me to leave out the full scope of the "accomplishments" of said cultures pumpkinhead, to wit;
20th century hemoclysm
eradication of species
anthropogenic deforestation
population overshoot
warsocialism
deception as the foundation of political ethology
All that stuff sure does suck, Boo Boo. Kinda makes me wonder why you haven't gone to live amongst the Yanomami.
History, logic, language, and values aside, what's funniest of all Big Man, is that when it comes down the scientific heart of the matter, given current factual understanding of the mechanics of genetics, epigenetics, and multi-level selection - it's not even biologically possible for someone to directly inherit, via genes, a certain level of intelligence.
The genetic complex doesn't work that way.
EVERYTHING about the genetic complex is mediated through interaction with its environment.
So the dichotomy of "nature vs. nurture" doesn't exist except as an artifact of long obsolete racialist magical thinking.
Clinging to such superstitious and backward beliefs in the light of modern factual evidence is quite simply pathological.
... it's not even biologically possible for someone to directly inherit, via genes, a certain level of intelligence.
Oh Boo Boo... you're so precious. You just keep trying, don't you?
Let me get this right: You say it is not biologically possible for someone to directly inherit a certain level of intelligence. Correct?
Well... do you know what happens when two mentally retarded adults get married and have a child?
Eighty percent of the time, that child is of below-average intelligence.
How could that be, Boo Boo? HOW COULD THAT POSSIBLY FUCKING BE??
Mills...
"Well... do you know what happens when two mentally retarded adults get married and have a child? Eighty percent of the time, that child is of below-average intelligence."
While I'd like to see the empirical data on this one, the notion that intelligence is a function of biology is not disputed by me. For example, humans on the average tend to be more intelligent than dogs.
The problem that you have, Mills, is that you are trying to correlate intelligence with "race". The snafu you run into here, Mills, is that you can not define "race" in any manner that is scientifically meaningful.
You haven't done it (define biological race) yet, and you logically can not do it in the future. Nor has any biologist or geneticist been able to define "race" on the basis of any objective biological characteristics. IT JUST CAN NOT BE DONE.
Thus while there undoubtedly exist more intelligent and less intelligent human INDIVIDUALS you can't group them in accordance with objectively determined physical traits and correlate such with intelligence.
That is, show me a "race" of "black skin color" persons of different height, and I'll show you a "race" of "6 feet tall" persons of various skin colors.
Thus your quest to explore any connection of "black", "white", "German", or maybe even "Pygmy" with intelligence is a dead end, for any of these categories other than "human" are not objectively determinable biological categories.
There is plenty of evidence, however, that one can retard the ability of ANY individual to function in accordance with his or her innate biologically given intelligence.
This retardation of people's ability to function in accordance with their intelligence can be accomplished in two ways. By interfering in the biological process of the brain (surgery, drugs, malnutrition, poisoning, etc.) and/or via social conditioning (miseducation - including absence from literacy, psychological conditioning on an individual basis and socio-psychological conditioning on a group basis - where the "group" is either self-defined or so defined by others).
There is plenty of evidence, however, that one can retard the ability of ANY individual to function in accordance with his or her innate biologically given intelligence.
and to shockingly deep levels, as well.
Well... do you know what happens when two mentally retarded adults get married and have a child?
YOU, you bloated masturbatory toad..,
Obvious conclusions aside, are you chindribbling about the heritability of Down Syndrome?
Mills...
"where the high value placed on intelligence (we can presume) influenced mating decisions... as with the rabbinical families of medieval Judaism."
Again, Mills you unfortunately display a woeful lack of understanding of the very basics of biological reproduction and the inheritance of traits.
In a population as small as "the rabbinical families of medieval Judaism" interbreeding is not likely to result in "higher intelligence" but in idiocy. This is why breeding among close relatives is not only discouraged in most cultures, but is legally prohibited.
If you want to find the source of Jewish "intellectual superiority" you have to look elsewhere. See, the question is not whether someone or some grouping is intelligent, but how that intelligence is utilized.
In the case of people who adhere to Judaism you have to go no farther than the Talmud. As any religion, Judaism is nothing but a set of instructions on how to organize the pragmatic social relationship within and without a self-defined group (in this case people who call themselves "Jews"), all under the guise of serving a "higher being", namely God.
In this case, Talmudic law demands a social organization which explicitly not only self-segregates this group from other human beings, but demands and functions in accordance with a socio-political which accords non-members of the group a lower status in rights than the group itself. Remember the example I gave up-thread which you declined to respond to. To wit:
"We've got two groups or "races".
Group(A) and group(B).
Person(a) is a member of group(A) and person(b) is a member of group(B).
Person(a) is a murderer and murders person(aa) who is also a member of group(A) and then murders person(b) who is a member of group(B).
Person(a) is to be judged and punished by a court of law the members of which all are members of group(A). This court(A) concludes as follows: The murder of person(aa) is a capital crime and therefore person(a) is to be executed. The murder of person(b), while it indeed is a crime, is not a capital crime because person(b) is not a member of group(A). The court(A) finds:
(1) no one else in the physical realm but court(A) (that is solely a court made up of members of group(A)) has the right to pass judgment on person(a).
(2) That court(A) only has jurisdiction over the crime of person(a) murdering person(aa) or any other member of group(A).
(3) That while court(A) acknowledges that the murder of person(b) by person(a) was prohibited and a crime, court(A) (or anyone else in the physical realm) can not punish person(a) for murdering person(b)."
This is an example of Talmudic law as expounded on by Maimonides who is considered the greatest Rabbinical scholar in Judaism.
In practical terms, this essentially this is nothing else but the Jewish equivalent of the famous US Supreme CourtDred Scott decision which maintained that a "black" man has no rights that a "white" man is bound to respect under US law.
With such a determination comes the need to enforce this notion of the unequal relationship between members of the supposed "superior" group and the non-members. This logically requires the application of one's intelligence in a direction primarily concerned with how to maintain that unequal relationship. Of necessity a whole socio-political CULTURE has to be constructed around this notion in order to implement tis. Particularly in areas where the group is small in numbers and can not rely on the force of arms (as could the white supremacists in the South who nonetheless developed a similar culture).
In the case of white supremacy there was a scientific endeavor to mainatin this unequal relationship and this lead to developments of increasingly sophisticated social organizations, military tactics and hardware, the development of socio-psychological tools (such as Samuel Cartwight's cure for Drapetomania, etc.
You'll find the same when you carefully study the Talmud (as well as the Torah). The religion of Christianity, being a Jewish heresy, liberalized these notions somewhat, while the religion of Islam, being a Judeo-Christian heresy, moved closer to the original concepts.
In sum, a biological explanation for Jewish intellectualism is pure nonsense. Inbreeding tends to produce idiots. Thus you have to look at the only alternative: Social organization and ideology. In the case of medieval Rabbinical Judaism you'll strike pay dirt.
"...and functions in accordance with a socio-political notion which..."
Obvious conclusions aside, are you chindribbling about the heritability of Down Syndrome?
Did I mention Down Syndrome, fuckstick?
The historical truth is that in American society the competitive advantage lay not in IQ, but in the category "white" as opposed to "non-white".
Then why do "non-white" Chinese Americans prosper, Michael?
They do? You been to the average Chinatown?
^ You been to Stanford University... where 23 percent of undergraduates are Asian American? Does that sound to you like victimization by a Global System of White Supremacy??
Did I mention Down Syndrome, fuckstick?
nah, you referred to your own parentage; Well... do you know what happens when two mentally retarded adults get married and have a child?
But without further evidence than that, your exceptional case isn't sufficient to prove the general rule..,
Mills...
"You been to Stanford University... where 23 percent of undergraduates are Asian American?"
You been to Howard University... where more than 90% of undergraduates are "African American"?
So what's your point?
Mills, you've stipulated scenario after scenario, all of which were successfully challenged and dismantled.
While I've addressed all of your arguments and questions without exception, you choose to pick and choose the my counter arguments that you respond to.
This, I submit, either is a function of dishonesty, educational ignorance, or lack of intelligence on your part.
M basic premise has been that you are quite intelligent and well-educated enough and that your refusal to own up to basic logic is thus based on racism. It is beginning to occur to me that I may have been mistaken. Apparently you have not been exposed to and thus lack the basic educational foundations of logical reasoning.
I told you it was D.)
and what's profoundly sad is that an ignorant, feeble-minded flak like this has been afforded media access.
the very fact of pumpkinhead jones existence underscores the validity of the "useful idiot" theory.
^ Sadder than that, Boo Boo, is the fact that you and MF -- products of MIT and Yale -- can be said to represent the "cognitive elite" of the African-American community.
And nary one of y'all got a job!!
How's that whole "self-employed" thing been working out for you, Boo Boo? Setting a good example for the young'uns? Been able to "commercialize" any of your ideas yet?
And who did the real brain work on Oeiad anyway... you or the white boy, Vinny?
Don't you wish you could spend more time MAKING MONEY than revealing your disordered personality online?
Working good pumpkinhead!!!
It took me six long years to bootstrap myself and organize a utilitarian technology portfolio designed for the increasing local needs of the greatest depression.
And to your diligently googled point, Oeiad - encrypted image alternating device/display (the "O" is silent) - never worked out commercially.
Oh well, lesson learned (old technologies never die, they just get ported off the personal computer and onto the smart phone)...,
Now, however, as your uselessness and expendibility become increasingly and painfully evident to you in the months and years to come - I've already made the transition to autonomy and have begun to harvest the fruits of a lengthy and trying struggle.
It feels good to design, debug, patent, and commercialize things that people use, enjoy, and come to depend upon.
What's your excuse again for arriving at middle-age a slovenly, childless, womanless, useless, oxygen-thieving mediocrity?
When do you plan on fulfilling the prime directive, or is eating, masturbating, and sharing your other lonely diversions for an audience your version of the prime directive?
Is this what your parents raised you to be?
What's your excuse again for arriving at middle-age a slovenly, childless, womanless, useless, oxygen-thieving mediocrity?
I want to be King of the Internet!
I've already made the transition to autonomy and have begun to harvest the fruits of a lengthy and trying struggle.
The operative word, I suppose, being "begun to."
I don't know, Boo Boo... I think you were born to fail. But for the sake of your kids, I hope I'm wrong.
I suppose your wife has been working to support them during your "lean" years?
Y'all are too funny, man. I enjoy watching y'all argue.
All three of you are obviously intelligent, but you spend an inordinate amount of time insulting each other's intelligence. That's so strange.
And, I think Fisher's constant point about the inability of anyone to truly decide what factors constitute a "race" is the strongest one in the argument about innate intelligence by race. The stuff by Nulan about the past accomplishments of different races is always good, but Fisher's point cuts to the heart of the matter.
Big Man...
"but you spend an inordinate amount of time insulting each other's intelligence. That's so strange."
LOL
Mills and Nulan...
"What's your excuse again for arriving at middle-age a slovenly, childless, womanless, useless, oxygen-thieving mediocrity?
I want to be King of the Internet!"
Mills, you ARE aware that you just said that you aim to be a slovenly-childless-womanless-useless-oxygen-thieving-mediocrity-King-of-the-Internet. Yes?
^ It's called "self-deprecating humor," Yale man. You and Boo Boo need to investigate the concept... release a little hot air from them over-inflated egos y'all pulling around.
"there is an all pervasive Jewish contagion. Yet the very best parts of the world are where the Jews are the strongest and most entrenched"
Of course, parasites always choose to infect the strongest hosts. let's not confuse correlation with causation here though.
Once Jews have infected any country, they will suck it dry within about 100 years or less. See Germany and see the US.
What!!!! DV I am waiting for your response.
I see now why you say online education is the better choice. Yep, this man just proved that point. See people this what higher educational institutions can do to you, make you think that having paper and a prestigous job makes you a elitist, looking down on others. Wow.... Dv......your words are becomeing truer and truer by the second. (smile)
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