Black Enough For You? 
What I found to be specifically enlightening regarding the recent exchange between Mike Fisher and DV prompted by this photo, is that, as much as I respect Mike’s extreme intellect and diligent persuasion, the fallacy in his argument re: the GSWS, shone like the morning sun.When that pic was first posted, my initial reaction to it was, something to the effect of, “Wow! Now, that chic resembles me”. That is precisely how I wear my hair, our skin tone and body types are similar and really, the only most recognizable difference between the two of us would be the shape of our noses. So fascinated was I by the similarity that I shared the photo with my sister, not having a clue as to who exactly this person was.
- It was somewhat gratifying (albeit unnecessary) to see that “someone else” appreciates the beauty that I see in myself. Enter Mike Fisher and his derogatory commentary.
- Exit Kimberly from the rehab of, as CNu would say, “deductivism gone wild”.
- After months and months of swallowing whole this theory of the GSWS, reading on the daily how some white racist idiot “triumphed” once again over my brethren with his cold and calculated methods, waiting patiently for the plan to unravel it all, I realized that in all actuality, according to Mike Fisher, that “I” ain’t even black enough.
Why exactly are folks jumping on Mike for expressing what is, frankly, not a new criticism? You guys are responding to him like he's the first person to ever note that features that are typically more "caucasian looking" are more commonly dubbed beautiful.Personally, I think my boy had a point. At a minimum he raised an interesting jumping off point discussion wise. Sometimes folks here act like DV is beyond challenge. I love him, but the negro dont know everything. Mike simply pointed to DV and his "most beautiful award" as a basis to question this widely held beauty belief. Again, whats so wrong with that?
I'm not sure how this got morphed into a "who is more Black contest" or a "how femininty is defined contest." More specifically, I'm not sure how this is reasonably taken as an attack on light skinned chicks. Folks are funny sometimes.
38 comments:
Kimberly...
"I realized that in all actuality, according to Mike Fisher, that “I” ain’t even black enough."
Define "black" if you would, please.
Kimberly,
If you look like this chick, you need to send up pics of you - promptly.
LOL @ the state...
Big J...
"Kimberly,
If you look like this chick, you need to send up pics of you - promptly."
Yep, MLK liked lighter skinned women better, too.
Why?
Mr. Fisher,
Blackness to me is the collective consciousness of pain, struggle, survival, coupled with an overwhelming and God driven force to prevail and succeed, despite tremendous obstacles systematically set forth by those who wish to see us fail, and a lot less to do with the melanin in one’s skin.
Why exactly are folks jumping on Mike for expressing what is, frankly, not a new criticism?
You guys are responding to him like he's the first person to ever note that features that are typically more "caucasian looking" are more commonly dubbed beautiful.
Personally, I think my boy had a point. At a minimum he raised an interesting jumping off point discussion wise. Sometimes folks here act like DV is beyond challenge. I love him, but the negro dont know everything. Mike simply pointed to DV and his "most beautiful award" as a basis to question this widely held beauty belief.
Again, whats so wrong with that?
I'm not sure how this got morphed into a "who is more Black contest" or a "how femininty is defined contest." More specifically, I'm not sure how this is reasonably taken as an attack on light skinned chicks.
Folks are funny sometimes.
kimberly...
"Blackness to me is the collective consciousness of pain, struggle, survival, coupled with an overwhelming and God driven force to prevail and succeed, despite tremendous obstacles systematically set forth by those who wish to see us fail, and a lot less to do with the melanin in one’s skin."
I can work with that definition.
Now. Did I ever accuse Ayo of not being black in that sense (or otherwise)?
In fact, did I not point out the suffering and racism that black people like Ayo have to endure in Germany and that literally drives many insane and caused Ayo to flee Germany for the UK (which, I bet she didn't find much of an improvement)?
LMAO at "the negro don't know everything".
Accordingly, I don't take DV's "most beautiful award" quite that seriously and much less a person who restricts their definition of a beautiful woman to those that possess lighter skin. (I’ve noticed DV loves them in whatever shade!)
Never in my life have I considered myself "light skinned", nor do I feel that I was attacked. I come from an ancestral line of Creoles both as black as coal and white enough to "pass" mixed with enough Native American blood from my family’s home around Natchez, LA. to produce the oddest version of a red hued brown-skinned person. Hi yella, I ain’t.
What I did not understand was Mike's insistence or implication that she is not a "real black woman" and backed that claim up by pointing out that she is 1/2 white. Honestly, I never ever would have guessed that she was by the photo alone. All of these superficial differences are useless and a waste of time to dwell upon.
Kimberly...
"What I did not understand was Mike's insistence or implication that she is not a "real black woman" and backed that claim up by pointing out that she is 1/2 white."
Kimberly, please review these threads. DV specifically asked me whether Ayo was black, and I said "of course". I also do not ever say that someone is "half-black" or even "bi-racial". There is no such thing. Either one is black or one is not.
The selection of light -skinned women by white racists in control of the media as standards of beauty one of the myriad ways of maintaining their white supremacist system. That system is largely held up by brain-washing. By understanding the why and how of that brain-washing process we will come closer to overthrowing that system.
Ayo is pretty, but she is not the most beautiful woman in the world. Because the question is always, "according to whom" and "why"?.
Fact is, my black Sudanese Arab German-speaking ex-almost-fiancé (who defines herself as black first before Arab in contrast to certain other Arab creole-men-only lovin' women here) and who is a classical ballet-dancer (you thus can imagine the slimness of her body) looks just like Ayo, just a bit, in my opinion, prettier.
That don't make her any less, black, but the white racists would surely make black folk think like that and hold her up as the standard of "black" beauty as a political tool so that we can go and hate on our darker-complexioned relatives.
Think about it. Why is Haiti, for example, so badly off, and the Dominican Republic next door a comparative "paradise"?
Why would a darker-complexioned black man make a fool offa himself with some apparently (in my opinion, much less than "hot") white chick on an airplane?
What makes black people behave that way?
"In fact, did I not point out the suffering and racism that black people like Ayo have to endure in Germany and that literally drives many insane and caused Ayo to flee Germany for the UK (which, I bet she didn't find much of an improvement)?"
Mike Fisher, did you in fact also suffer this so called racism that drives one insane? Cos I didn't.... and I lived in London too. Infact, it is living in America( New York, Atlanta, Washington DC), that made me most aware of the line between black and white!
"You guys are responding to him like he's the first person to ever note that features that are typically more "caucasian looking" are more commonly dubbed beautiful. Mike simply pointed to DV and his "most beautiful award" as a basis to question this widely held beauty belief." RJEsq said...
By whom?
Nah. Really. “Caucasian looking” features are more commonly dubbed beautiful by ___________________ ___________ ?
Not by white racists as MF would have us believe.
By Negros. That’s whom.
I don’t think white people sit around thinking about shit like this really. The whole skin-tone thing is a Negro pastime.
Mike and now Robyn are playing Group Identity Politics.
Why can’t women like Ayo and Kimberly just be beautiful … on their own accord … for 5 … damn … minutes … without somebody snickering “Light skinndededed Eurocentric Mumbo Jumbo”?
According to ya’ll, if a woman doesn’t have a bone in her nose or play power forward for the Rutgers Girls basketball team, her beauty must have an asterisk next to it.
Look, whether you are beautiful or not, the color don’t really much of a difference.
Accra. Do you speak, read, or write German?
DV...
"I don’t think white people sit around thinking about shit like this really."
If you think you think, you don't think, but you think you think.
Clearly, you are not in the entertainment business.
No....Robyn is not playing group anything. Robyn is simply questioning why Mike is now public enemy number one for pointing out that caucasian features are typically considered more beautiful. Is the chick that did that doll study with little black girls also a group politician? Just wondering so I'll know.
You ask by whom [this standard is applied) and respond "Black people." And your point is? And that changes the nature of what I pointed out how?
How many different ways do I have to say beautiful black women come in all shapes and sizes, IMO. How you now accuse me of saying anything otherwise is beyond me.
But I get it, anyone that doesnt fall in line with DV's proclamations of what's true, beautiful, valuable or good, is a victom of today's group think propaganda. And to that I say, what else is new?
"But I get it, anyone that doesnt fall in line with DV's proclamations of what's true, beautiful, valuable or good, is a victom of today's group think propaganda." RJEsq
Nah. It’s not that deep actually.
Here is why you are exercising group think: “caucasian features are typically considered more beautiful.”
That’s classic group think.
Considered by whom _______ ?
If you consider “Caucasian features” (whatever that is), to be more beautiful, say so. Projecting your sense of bias the mythical 'everybody' creates a self-defeating prophecy.
Personally I see a world of people in love with Pan-African features.
If I remember DV, you indicated Ayo was the most beautiful female on the planet.
Michael Fisher pointed out that skinny toothpick is not the finest thing walking around in Nigeria and posted up a pageant sista that represent what most consider the standard of Black beauty.
Is Ayo beautiful? I think she may have a beautiful spirit and gifted. I would like to understand your opinion on what you actually think makes her beautiful. My speculation is her ability to express herself artistically.
Like I said before, DV likes women that are "barely black." He likes women that had, maybe, a black grandparent.
Kimberly,
Isn't Natchez in Mississippi>?
"Michael Fisher pointed out that skinny toothpick is not the finest thing walking around in Nigeria and posted up a pageant sista that represent what most consider the standard of Black beauty." Ed
Brother Ed, you a cool cat, but you wrong as homosexual adoption on this one.
The Sista From Nigeria. DID NOT REPRESENT. WHAT. MOST would consider the STANDARD of black beauty.
The sista from the Nigeria pagent only represented herself.
Ayo represents herself.
Racism this ... Euro that ... too skinny to be black yada yada ... is nothing but group think. We have a culture of people incapable of seeing individuals.
Ever notice that it's those who cry racism all the time, who turn out to be the biggest racists?
Is Ayo beautiful?
Yes. She is incredibly beautiful. She's drop dead beautiful. She's gorgeous. She's a dime. She's a fine motherfucker.
That doesn't take anything away from black women who look different from her.
Ya'll can talk all that fake race psychobabble you want.
The bottom line is this: many men tend to resent and down play women they couldn't pull.
Fish doesn't think an Ayo would feel him, so he launches a preemptive strike by suggesting she is somehow less black and less female.
Ridiculous.
DV...
"Fish doesn't think an Ayo would feel him, so he launches a preemptive strike by suggesting she is somehow less black and less female."
You're assuming quite a bit, DV.
I done told you about my Sudanese ex. I done told your girl Dina right here on the board that I look like an Egyptian, which means I look somewhat like Ayo's Black German husband
(an older, a bit heavier version thereof)
There is no such thing as "neutral beauty. Not been so for hundreds of years now, and likely not before.
Kimberly,
Isn't Natchez in Mississippi>?
Ummm...not that I am aware of...My parents were born here:
Natchitoches Parish (French: Paroisse des Natchitoches) is a parish located in the U.S. state of Louisiana. The parish seat is Natchitoches. As of 2000, the population was 39,080
My grandparents still live there and I visit them regularly. If you are familiar with the movie Steel Magnolias, you will know exactly where I am talking about.
BTW, that is an absolutely beautiful picture of Robyn!
DV: The Sista From Nigeria. DID NOT REPRESENT. WHAT. MOST would consider the STANDARD of black beauty.
Which was why I was so confused about the whole thing, esp. from the view point of a head strong black nationalist.
The Nigerian woman, would have been slammed by Mike a few months before when he did a piece on black women "conking" their hair.
I really really wanted to stay out of what appeared to be degenerating into a fifth gradelevel discussion on who was the prettiest. But then DV said this,
"I don’t think white people sit around thinking about shit like this really. The whole skin-tone thing is a Negro pastime."
and I damn near shat on myself.
I had been giving you credit for living in the real world DV, but you have seriously challenged that assertion on my part with this assertion on your part. Please drop a brief note to reassure me that you were only being facetious, that you really don't think that Black people are the ones who came up with all the varying designations of skin tone within our group. I know you have a better grasp of history than that. Understand that I am not saying that Black people do not partake in this pastime. I am saying that we didn't create it; nor are we the main people perpetuating it as we control none of the information distribution channels by which these types of messages are globally disseminated.
And if you give Black people credit for "groupthink", why are you so certain that there isn't any white "groupthink" (better known as the GSWS)?
Exodus.
Read My Lips:
ONLY NEGROS OBSESS ABOUT “LIGHT” SKIN AND DARK SKIN.
Notice, I did not say “black” people. I said “NEGROS” as in handkerchief head Plantation minded blacks more comfortable with out-dated racial paradigms.
Plantation Negros, disguised as “Black Nationalists” are the perpetuators of some of the most ignorant racist attitudes imaginable. Yeah, yeah, they can always blame the faceless “white racist” or the omnipotent “Global System of White Supremacy”, but it’s Race Cops like Mike Fisher who constantly throw gasoline on the fire of racial animosity.
As far as “History” and who started it – man please.
If you are a free black man in 2007, blaming white people – who died 200 years ago – for your backwards ass racial attitudes today, you need to find a plantation somewhere and just start picking cotton. You want to be a slave.
DV gives credit to "his ancestors" for "breeding" him, but he will not give credit to white people dead long ago who set up a system and passed it on to their children as their inheritance.
The point is, that the system is alive and well today.
DV stated that ONE particular woman out of some 4 BILLION women is the MOST BEAUTIFUL of ALL 4 BILLION women.
That most certainly is the expression of an obsession.
Thus DV, who in fact himself obsessed over a light skinned black woman, then, according to his own logic is one of the "Negroes".
Which leads me to conclude that this is DV
The point is, that the system is alive and well today.
Only in the minds and actions of those individuals and subgroups who carry out sundry group-identified malfeasant behavior. These behaviors are easily identified and can be responded to surgically and effectively on multiple levels - when their threat profile warrants it.
However, because deductivism has chewed its way through whatever once facile cognitive assets you could formerly boast, and you've elected to designate all those conventionally termed "white" as part of this "system" - aside from endlessly, mechanically, and addictively talking about it, what exactly are you gonna DO about it?
absolutist fundamentalism has marginalized your thinking and behavior to the point of rendering it less than useless....,
kimberly said...
BTW, that is an absolutely beautiful picture of Robyn!
Nah, Kimberly
That's not Robyn. Robin's color and features are a bit closer to you and Ayo's than this young lady in the flick.
While Ayo sported a natural, this woman sports a bouffant, or as you so aptly noted according to Fisher a "conk".
I wondered if Sista Robyn considered a conk a "European feature".
You beat me to it, DV. Kimberly, thats not me. I actually thought DV selected that picture as a test for me. That woman is a bit larger and darker than me. If I piped up with "thats not what I look like," arguably, that would have been support for his argument that this beauty issue is self inflicted and not an independent phenomenon. I wasnt going to give him the satisfaction. :-).
As DV said, I'm likely about the same complexion as you and Ayo. With a common Black woman's shape -- hips and bit butt (aint no use in denying it). LOL.
I considered forwarding a picture of myself to illustrate many of the points being made this week, but then I decided against it. Dont want some internet crazy coming after me!
"If you are a free black man in 2007, blaming white people – who died 200 years ago – for your backwards ass racial attitudes today, you need to find a plantation somewhere and just start picking cotton. You want to be a slave." Denmark Vesey
RJEsq: This is why I cant stay irritated at you. LMAO!
Do I consider a conk a European feature? I acknowledge that it is arguably a way of getting closer to a European feature. But, hell, its a necessary evil. I have a...conk. (That's a old ass word).
Dont want some internet crazy coming after me!
LOL! Ain't that the truth! Even my little myspace page photos consist of only my most precious and favorite artwork!
Cnulan said...
The point is, that the system is alive and well today.
Only in the minds and actions of those individuals and subgroups who carry out sundry group-identified malfeasant behavior. These behaviors are easily identified and can be responded to surgically and effectively on multiple levels - when their threat profile warrants it."
CNu,
Run that past me again.
Are you suggesting that this grandiose 'Global System of White Supremacy' is largely the product of the imaginations of the people who claim to suffer from it?
Imagine if the power of imagination and the mental energy exerted by these High Priests of GSWS were used to promote a Global System of Black Supremacy.
Nigeria would be landing a man on the moon today and Harlem would be an expensive gated community.
This was a funny thread..You'll got me laughing over here...An argument about "beauty"..ha ha
Are you suggesting that this grandiose 'Global System of White Supremacy' is largely the product of the imaginations of the people who claim to suffer from it?
White supremacy is "market limiting" and in a global economy, a clearly sub-optimal premise.
Why cut off the potential sources of your willing dopaminergic paper by saying and doing obviously repugnant shit?
Them dumbass bamas in Birmingham got that message in the early 60's and curbed the repugnant elements in their midst! Clearly many another (the majority of) former supremacist got that memo and updated their openly repugnant ways, as well.
So what I'm saying is in effect nowadays - is that - ruthless elements of "smart supremacy" have whole bunches of suggestible nutters running around believing whatever they want them to believe. Those systems of belief run a vast gamut.
To your point DV, at this juncture, it's an open competitive field for anyone willing and able to elevate their game - to join market making ranks of global smart supremacists and participate in the mass fleecing of multitudes of suggestible rubes for whom it's enough to simply live through fantasy - rather than BE and DICTATE the fantasy idol-y indulged by multitudes.
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