On my wall, I have a picture of a Muslim woman shrouded in a burka.Beside it is a picture of an American beauty contestant, wearing nothing but a bikini.
One woman is totally hidden from the public; the other is totally exposed. These two extremes say a great deal about the clash of so-called "civilizations."
The role of woman is at the heart of any culture. Apart from stealing Arab oil, the impending war in the Middle East is about stripping Arabs of their religion and culture, exchanging the burka for a bikini.
I am not an expert on the condition of Muslim women and I love feminine beauty too much to advocate the burka here. But I am defending some of the values that the burka represents for me.For me, the burka represents a woman's consecration to her husband and family. Only they see her.
It affirms the privacy, exclusivity and importance of the domestic sphere.
The Muslim woman's focus is her home, the "nest" where her children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training her children, providing refuge and support to her husband.
In contrast, the bikinied American beauty queen struts practically naked in front of millions on TV. A feminist, she belongs to herself. In practice, paradoxically, she is public property. She belongs to no one and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is auctioning herself all of the time.
In America, the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal. (As this asset depreciates quickly, she is neurotically obsessed with appearance and plagued by weight problems.)
As an adolescent, her role model is Britney Spears, a singer whose act approximates a strip tease. From Britney, she learns that she will be loved only if she gives sex. Thus, she learns to "hook up" rather than to demand patient courtship and true love. As a result, dozens of males know her before her husband does. She loses her innocence, which is a part of her charm. She becomes hardened and calculating. Unable to love, she is unfit to receive her husband's seed.
87 comments:
I can't say. I don't know mind of either woman.
Which one do you think is sexier--I ask since I know you enjoy the talents of Nikki Minaj.
And by the way, where does the Mrs. shop for her designer Burkha's? Brother like you isn't going to let her buy hers from JC Penney...
Read it again Doc.
Think you missed the operative point of the piece.
I read it. I see where he's going with it...but I think the Burkha represents more than just female modesty. I think it represents oppression, and lack of choice for the woman.
I respect their culture. Saudi Arabian domestic culture isn't my business.
I know you don't have your wife in a Burkha (although if you did, I'm sure it would be designer).
I am really curious as to which YOU find sexier and why. I gave you my honest answer.
"I think it represents oppression, and lack of choice for the woman."
Do you really think that, Doc?
Or are you, subconsciously, repeating an anti-Islamic meme, born of secular arrogance and Western ignorance?
Is a Burka really any more 'oppressive' than a bikini?
Really?
Is a single 25 year old woman who walks around half naked during the day, and strips nude in a club at night to pay her rent and prescription drug bills ... really any less "oppressed" than a 25 year old wife and mother who wears a burka during the day and is at home with her family at night?
I run night clubs and I'm more attracted to a woman in a Channel suit than I am to all the hookers I see picking up pennies on the dance floor with their buttocks.
The 'burqua' is for daily wear, the bikini is for the beach, and 'strip club performances'. The two are not equivalent articles of clothing, and I too see the 'burqua' as representative of female oppression. However, I do find 'bikini wear'(worn with high heels no less) representative of the objectivication of the female, esp. in 'beauty contests'.
I have never been, and never will be anti-Muslim (...or have any prejudice other than the hatred of stupid people).
The entire premise of the Burkha blames women for "enticing" men to "sin". This is played out in some of the more rural backwaters of the Muslim world. A couple commit adultery (or shit--all that needs to happen is an accusation), and some woman is sentenced to stoning, or lashes or whatever, while the dude essentially gets off. I disagree with forcing someone to wear the Burkha, but I don't live in any of the countries where this is common, so I respect their cultural practices. If a woman chooses to wear it, fine. However, I really find no problem at all with France banning it...for the same reasons. Did you follow what happened to the women of Afghanistan in the late 90's under Taliban rule--WAY before they became a target in the "War on Terror"?
I do also agree with Anonymous (pick a name, you have something to contribute), that the bikini also objectifies women, and find beauty contests especially off putting.
"the bikini is for the beach, and 'strip club performances"
not really. Think of all the places you see bikini's. Television, movies, print and the internet. The bikini is to the beach what Nikes are to the basketball court.
Intended for one thing, but women are seen in them everywhere.
Effectively the bikini is the American woman's burka.
"The entire premise of the Burkha blames women for "enticing" men to "sin". " DMG
Wrong.
"This is played out in some of the more rural backwaters of the Muslim world. A couple commit adultery (or shit--all that needs to happen is an accusation), and some woman is sentenced to stoning" DMG
Wrong. Fox Newsish.
"Did you follow what happened to the women of Afghanistan in the late 90's under Taliban rule--WAY before they became a target in the "War on Terror"? DMG
No.
I was in the United States in the late 90's.
Did you follow "what happened to women of Afghanistan under Taliban rule?"
or
Did you follow the propaganda about what "happened to women" under Taliban rule?
"the bikini is for the beach, and 'strip club performances"
THINK OF ALL THE PLACES YOU SEE BIKINI'S. TELEVISION, MOVIES, PRINT AND THE INTERNET.
THE
BIKINI
IS
TO
THE
BEACH
WHAT
NIKE
ARE
TO
THE
BASKETBALL
COURT.
DAAAAMMMMN.
...
DV. I'm not ask'n you to reveal your occupation but confirm if you are in advertisement or not...in anyway are you connected to Media Ecology (other than through your independent works)?
"A girl is raised in ornaments and jewelry treated as an appendage to men.
The culture views her as inferior to men, she must be enhanced & augmented by trinkets and make-up or in today's society by breast implants. The outward OBSESSION with how a girl looks and the PRESSURE to be physically appealing for a man's SAKE, results in an under developed sense of self and assurance which indeed leads to an inability to formulate and articulate individual assessments of situations and personal views about themselves." - Hamza Yusuf Hanson
"Did you follow what happened to the women of Afghanistan in the late 90's under Taliban rule--WAY before they became a target in the "War on Terror"? DMG
There are extremes in the support of any concept. Medicine is an ancient practice. Today it's practiced to an extreme. Most of it is do to extreme lifestyles. Starting your morning with MacDonald's is extreme. Ending your day with MacDonald's is extreme. Naturally you create an industry that thrives solely from self-destructive behavior.
I'm not implying I understand the social constructs of Afghanistan. If you can't even get media ecology in America (how we respond to controlled popular influences) there is noooo way one can even begin to understand a culture that has been in existence before our own.
^^^...UNLESS it is something you've already had an affinity for before someone told you it was important to investigate.
I believe Americans are hyper focused on how freedom is packaged in the united states rather than freedom from a natural law perspective.
Typical American's see a woman forced to cover herself as if the society is ashamed of her physical appearance, or she's in some psychological bondage when you can also spin this as the woman being sacred, worth cherishing and also a source of temptation among men. If a society believes man must control his or her thoughts, that man becomes what he/she gazes upon and that removing promiscuous sexuality from ones conscience is a road to the higher self I see no problem with Burkas.
The issue isn't freedom or mistreatment of women in Muslim society, its simply that you can't relate because you see the personal selection of clothing as some inalienable right tied to the American idea of "Freedom". Many of the "freedoms" American's cherish become pitfalls so quickly that its a wonder they are labeled "freedoms" to begin with. Americans live in a hypersexual, hyperviolent society yet fight tooth and nail for the "freedoms" that contribute to that state because of our worship of a bunch of men who wrote a document back in 1776. We'd rather live in disfunction than look in the mirror. And if you think these "freedoms" don't contribute to the subconscious blind allegiance and powerlessness that fails to question a controlled media apparatus that sells you 2 political options and 3 buildings falling from two planes, you sir/madam are well trained.
KP
Malcolm created the FOI (Fruit of Islam) for the Nation based on the teachings of Elijah Muhammad. You can see how the Black Panther Party was developed out of those sentiments.
"Until we learn to love and protect our women, we will never be a fit and recognized people on the Earth. The white people here among you will never recognize you until you protect your women."-Elijah Muhammad
KAY P
Yes. What they attempt to say to us is, don't start complaining about your freedoms because you can be worse off like those people over there. Like a man that beats his wife and tells her that she should appreciate him for not being one of those husbands that murder their wives.
uglyblackjohn said...
"I run night clubs and I'm more attracted to a woman in a Channel suit than I am to all the hookers I see picking up pennies on the dance floor with their buttocks."
Um.
I like your style Black John. Like your style.
Geeeeee Cheeeeee!
Thank you Bra. Thank you Bra. 'ppreciate it.
That means a lot coming from an artist.
"but confirm if you are in advertisement or not...in anyway are you connected to Media Ecology" GC
just a little bit.
The "bikini theory" also affects men. This media nation is so sexually charged. Young men, women and boys are doused in soft porn scenes from movies, ads, videos - even promotional event models (from Carl's Jr to Disney) are expected to be busty, sexy and revealing.
The average male needs to SEE everything. Tshirt and boy shorts doesn't get him up anymore (well, not as much) because he can see fill in the blank of any chick in a thong and bikini top in any men's mag or tv ad.
Also, as we've discussed on end, the burgeoning single and childless American male is more concerned with the act of producing without actually producing.
I hate that kind of watch and attention from men. So I do everything in my power to play it down while questioning myself all throughout about whether or not I'm being a prude.
I see no problem with rewarding ones physicality..."if eyes were made for seeing than beauty is its own excuse for being" but there is a way to do everything, our youth are all watching us and the preoccupation with easily accessed sex in various forms is compromising the intimate foundations of our relationships.
"The average male needs to SEE everything. Tshirt and boy shorts doesn't get him up anymore (well, not as much) because he can see fill in the blank of any chick in a thong and bikini top in any men's mag or tv ad. " OM'
Ahhhhhhh Shit.
My girl aint scared.
Intellectually aggressive.
And exactly what I'm talking about.
Nothing is less sexy than too much sex.
Attracting me to sin and the ignorance of sexuality has led us to the question of what is sexy or sexier? Was Eddie Long"s muscle Ts more sexier to the women or the men in his "congregation"? DV you have a couple "closet bloggers" who would rather respond to that query? The whole approach to the question of what is "sexy" makes me recall the rap lyrics indicating a brother wanted his "woman" to be a lady in the streets and a "freak" in the bed. I'm in love with a stripper but if she becomes "my woman" she can't strip anymore. If its the exhibiton of sex on display or the suggestive presentation to show respect for whole person continues to be a "hot topic" for society. Western society has become so perverted I would rather prefer my woman presented as a "whole" and not a "ho" which attracts a brother with "manhood" and not "man-ho".
O. Mahogany just add that Pam Grier Judo chop into your repertoire to ying-out all that access yang.
I believe because of males becoming to obsessed with sexuality that this is the reason why when they go into prison, they end up committing sexual acts with each other. I have known cats that worked in the prison or been to prison. They say these dudes deny being gay. That is a result of being extreme in their sexuality on the outside world. Not learning to control desires as oppose to them controlling you.
sex and the ability to have it is a gift of God. i believe when he thought of how man would recreate his masterpiece he knew it would have to be an act most primal...it would have to appeal the the totality of man's flesh....because if it was anything more than that, we would not do it.
we will not invest ourselves on that level to create another being without feeling like we are getting something out of the deal.
young men have always been driven by sex and the desire to have it. young women are taught that sex is only to be shared/given when the man chooses u as wife.
both are extremes.
sex is natural. babies come out of the womb realizing that when their genitalia is touched..it feels good. boys and girls.
we have created a shame-based, over-sexualized society that says u should desire to have sex morning noon and night..but u better not because it is bad.
teaching our children the purpose and beauty of sex is most important. i was raised to respect my body and to also recognize that is is normal to have sexual desire...
Im not braggin' but the second chick you showcased... Ill be respectful and say Ive "dated". Don't bring out wayne please Im just saying it's a coincidence. I'll give more constructive comment after I read.
Truth: KP, Gee Chee, DV and Mahogany.
Accept no substitutes.
Ill
'Scuse me, but errr why are you trying to not to brag and name dropping at the same time like some covert 'up my status' thing? With all love and respect, Ill you're way too grown and too cool for such juvey stunts.
What I am still trying to figure out is why the burka is allegedly a symbol of oppression. Other than repeating propaganda cliches, I would love someone to articulate it for me.
If it is a matter of choice, then is anything we don't have a choice about a matter of oppression? Because that logic doesn't work. That would make the Marines "oppressed" by their matching haircuts and uniforms and, presumably, have no say in the matter if one guy wants to keep dreads and wear sagging jeans.
If choice is not the issue, than is it the start contrast of that look against what we are accustomed to seeing? Because, by that standard, anything that is not us is oppression.
You know you my girl KP...LOL... true.. there's still that part of me that needs to expouse truth even if it reflects badly upon me. Something I need to work on.
II,
I believe I said "forced" to wear the Burkha symbolized oppression. Excuse me if I didn't make that clear.
Your analogy with Marines doesn't work for a couple of reasons. Enlistment in the U.S. Military has not been compulsory for close to 40 years, we all chose that lifestyle when we signed on the dotted line, and agreed to conform to a certain dress code (and those Marine Dress Blues are damn sexy--The Army's not so much..). Your analogy would work for say a woman choosing to marry into a Muslim family where that article of clothing is worn.
I'll admit, I'm looking at the Burkha from an ethnocentric viewpoint. Wearing a hot sack head to toe in 100 degree heat, while the woman's male partner can wear lighter clothing strikes me as unequal. Covering yourself head to toe to protect the man from "sinning" is patently ridiculous in my opinion.
II, you don't strike me as someone who would defer to a man's opinion or consider yourself a man's lesser. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you, or would you wear the niqab and burkha around LA on a daily basis? Not taunting, just curious about your opinion as a Muslim woman.
I like to look for the root cause of things. When did this style of dress become mandatory for women to appear "modest"? Is this in the Qu'ran? Some would say no. If there is no proclamation in the Qu'ran, which I'm told is considered to be complete without any omissions, from where did this rule arise? And a better question is why.
But I don't think this thinking is specific to Islam. Man has a knack for putting words into the mouths of dead prophets. If there is an afterlife, I'm sure Jesus and Muhammad are rolling their eyes at all the things done in their name.
Come again Ill?
KP
II (excuse me if this gets posted twice)
I believe I said "forced" to wear the Burkha symbolized oppression. Excuse me if I didn't make that clear.
Your analogy with Marines doesn't work for a couple of reasons. Enlistment in the U.S. Military has not been compulsory for close to 40 years, we all chose that lifestyle when we signed on the dotted line, and agreed to conform to a certain dress code (and those Marine Dress Blues are damn sexy--The Army's not so much..). Your analogy would work for say a woman choosing to marry into a Muslim family where that article of clothing is worn.
I'll admit, I'm looking at the Burkha from an ethnocentric viewpoint. Wearing a hot sack head to toe in 100 degree heat, while the woman's male partner can wear lighter clothing strikes me as unequal. Covering yourself head to toe to protect the man from "sinning" is patently ridiculous in MY opinion.
Ill
That comment was from me not KP.
Part 2
II, you don't strike me as someone who would defer to a man's opinion or consider yourself a man's lesser. Correct me if I'm wrong. Would you, or have you worn the niqab and burkha around LA on a daily basis? I’m not taunting, I’m just curious about your choices as a Muslim woman. I've had conversations about this topic with Muslim and or Arab friends of mine, male and female. Most don't like the Burkha, but my sampling may be biased as most of them are not ultra-conservative in their religious, social and political views.
I like to look for the root cause of things. When did this style of dress become mandatory for women to appear "modest"? Is this in the Qu'ran? Some would say no. If there is no proclamation in the Qu'ran, which I’m told is considered complete without any omissions, from where did this rule arise? And a better question is why.
But I don't think this thinking is specific to Islam. Man has a knack for putting words into the mouths of dead prophets. If there is an afterlife, I'm sure Jesus and Muhammad are rolling their eyes at all the things done in their name.
(This eating of posts is getting annoying, it's not only happening with long posts).
Part 2--again.
II, you don't strike me as someone who would defer to a man's opinion or consider yourself a man's lesser. Correct me if I'm wrong. Would you, or have you worn the niqab and burkha around LA on a daily basis? I’m not taunting, I’m just curious about your choices as a Muslim woman. I've had conversations about this topic with Muslim and or Arab friends of mine, male and female. Most don't like the Burkha, but my sampling may be biased as most of them are not ultra-conservative in their religious, social and political views.
I like to look for the root cause of things. When did this style of dress become mandatory for women to appear "modest"? Is this in the Qu'ran? Some would say no. If there is no proclamation in the Qu'ran, which I’m told is considered complete without any omissions, from where did this rule arise? And a better question is why.
Some would say no. If there is no proclamation in the Qu'ran, which I’m told is considered complete without any omissions, from where did this rule arise? And a better question is why.
I don't think this is only a problem with Islam. Fundamentalist Christians tend to place words in the mouth of it's prophet, and perhaps more so than Islam.
If it is a matter of choice, then is anything we don't have a choice about a matter of oppression? Because that logic doesn't work. That would make the Marines "oppressed" by their matching haircuts and uniforms and, presumably, have no say in the matter if one guy wants to keep dreads and wear sagging jeans.-II
True II. Who's screaming that Catholic nuns are oppressed? Not only that, but don't even think about touching a man. For your entire life.
Western tradition of marriage either shares or adopts (possibly the later since it's grounded in eastern theology) the ritual of the bride presented in full covering. A ceremonious act which gestures the father passing on the security of his family to another man. Every father I know is willing to ransom his own life for the security of his son or daughter. ESPECIALLY HIS DAUGHTER. The father is doing more than putting his life in the hands of an adopted son, but the life of his own daughter.
For the bride and groom this IS their most sacred bonding accompanied by witnesses and legitimated by a minister. Her piety is performed by adorning herself in a covering, that is removed only by her husband.
The most oppressed day of her life is highly honored.
You'll find in eastern practices that the practice of rituals are not done so for the creation (ie burka because of the weakness of men) but for the Creator. Take off the first three letters of spiritual and you are left with ritual. Haven't investigated the word just thought that's interesting.
It takes rituals in both the physical and metaphysical world to achieve objectives. Rituals in eating to achieve good health. Rituals in the study of literature, art, science to achieve OUTWARD aspects of civilization. Rituals of spiritual practices to achieve a fortified and refined heart.
I love to place my son in front of Chinese Kung-Fu movies depicting it's early period (if I do put him in front of a tv) because of the inward aspects of ritual. From the clothing, to the self sacrifice, chivalry to the presentation and consumption of food and drink. Inward cumulative works are not cataloged and punched in yet it refines the heart and strengthens it in righteousness just as a physical workout strengthens it in circulation. Then only does the "brain reflect whats in the heart as the moon reflects the sun." And "a vessel can only pour out what it contains." -Jesus
DMG
That's because you believe we come from monkeys. Some racists shyt. You are the in between Monkeys and white folk. You are the missing link. This idea strips away any need to anything more than an animal awaiting it's death with no other purpose than to be a parasite on the Earth. So the concept of inward development is something that will ALWAYS make no since to you. It's not an insult just an obvious result of "fact" based Darwin.
Gee Chee,
Not really in the mood for stupidity today. So can you move it along? I'm really interested in what II has to say since she is Muslim, and a woman.
Catch me later when the host puts up some vaccine stuff or "GMO", thanks.
And Catholic nuns (much like Marines) CHOSE to enter the convent--they weren't born into it. Can you please keep up?
Does dmg really believe he is winning these discussions or is part of an act? I'm new here and don't get it.
Anonymous #5678
Do you REALLY think you are contributing to the conversation? Why do random motherfuckers, with nothing to say feel they can run up from the back of the crowd and take a cowardly swipe before ducking away? I mean at LEAST get a name.
Not really in the mood for stupidity today. Catch me later when the host puts up some vaccine stuff or "GMO", thanks.-DMG
Deflate your chest DMG, you mistakenly thought you could contribute something beyond trickle-down folly.
And Catholic nuns (much like Marines) CHOSE to enter the convent--they weren't born into it. Can you please keep up?-DMG
That wasn't even thought out DMG. You're just blindly firing in the air. Like I said, "A vessel can only pour what it contains." I'm sure you've retracted your post before I can finish typing this.
^^^
...Oh
...I stand corrected.
For once, quit being a clown. Debate the topic like an adult, and stay on point. It's not too much to ask.
You are more interested in trying to appear deep and score points. But all you are doing is tossing out random sayings, that have no bearing whatsoever about the topic.
Blindly firing? What hallucinogenic drug are you on? Gee Chee, seriously I'm not interested in your clown shit tonight. Step.
II,
Looking forward to your answer. I'm really interested in your personal view of the Burkha, why or why you do not wear it etc.
I'm a bit annoyed at the usual bullshit distractions, so if I don't answer right away, I'll get back at you tomorrow.
Hey DMG,
I guess we should be clear on terms. As I understand it, the burka is the head to toe black garment, but I think it's the term most Americans use when referring to all Muslim hair or face coverings.
Hijab is what covers the hair only. Niqab is what covers the face. Perhaps the burka is a combo of the two but, for purposes of this discussion, I'll just talk about the hijab and niqab.
I don't wear either, but the hijab is beautiful. It really is. Perhaps I am biased because most of the women in my family wear hijab and are some of the most amazing, intelligent, loving, accomplished women on this planet. And do it because it is an expression of their devotion to God. I'm not there yet, but it's not out of the realm of possibility one day.
As for the niqab, I believe it is unhealthy. Anything that prevents a woman from exposing any skin to the sun and, thus, makes her Vitamin D deficient is not just unGodly, it is Satanic. Islam is so sensible and practical that I do not believe the niqab is Islamic at all. That's why it has to be forced on people.
The Quran talks about covering what should be covered. It talks about modesty (which applies to men as well). So Muslims and so-called Muslims interpret that in whatever way supports their world view and act accordingly. But I don't see how God would create such beauty in addition to the need for Vitamin D, then shroud it.
There are various theories as to how the rule arose - some say that because the Prophet's (PBUH) wives covered themselves, the ultimate female religiousness is to dress like them. Another theory is that when the various invaders came through Muslim lands, they would snatch up the beautiful ladies, so it became the practice to cover up your woman if you didn't want some soldier taking her. That sounds plausible to me.
No I don't consider myself "lesser" to a man, but I recognize, applaud and appreciate the differences between men and women. When my husband and I disagree on things, I generally defer to his judgment. I truly believe that is how we women affirm our man's manhood and build men to be men. When a man knows that the buck stops with him, he will be more thoughtful about his decisions. And the more thoughtful he is, the better he becomes.
II,
Thank you for a well thought out, and honest answer. I really do appreciate it. I'll get back to you a little later.
Point out the clown'n in any of my posts DMG. I'll respectfully walk you through each statement I abbreviated for Gomer Pyle U.S.M.C thinking clods. References and all.
Oh, "You don't have time for that. You're uninterested, sorry." Cool, cool. Then don't respond. I'm correcting your uninformed material. Have no expectations of you being equipped to refute anything.
But let's not put on a light show after you've clearly expressed in the past your apathy for theological precepts. I see straight through the posing DMG.
Thank you for a well thought out, and honest answer. I really do appreciate it. I'll get back to you a little later.-DMG
Negro...now I really know you're posing.
Gee-Chee,
Sorry man. I have to put you in the Thordaddy, Wax category. Engaging you in conversation is clearly a waste of time. There's nothing you've written on this thread that has anything to do with the topic. You aren't profound. You aren't even very interesting. Maybe you are a good artist, I don't know. Don't really care. But on this topic, you can't put together a coherent point without your typical clown antics. You are more interested in "Gee-Chee" than the topic. You don't exist to me anymore. It sucks because sometimes I had fun going back and forth with you...but lately you've just been a clown.
Two fingers.
DMG, you putting on the same stage show when I called you out on Cheikh Anta Diop.
I know your signature insults when you feel uneasy about a topic and start squirm'n. The same script DMG, not slick.
Clown antics?
Think about it DMG. You read that Harry Potter shyt and mythology on Loki and Asgard. Stan Lee nonsense.
I pull from Black Crescent/Michael Gomez, Black Pilgrimage to Islam/Robert Dannin, Islam and the Blackamerican/SHERMAN JACKSON, American Muslim Women/Jamillah Karim, Servants of Allah/Sylviane A. Diouf, The Manners Relating to Eating/AL-GHAZALI. I exchange ideas here DMG.
That sandbox "I don't want you on my team" shyt is gay. Negro, I'm typing in a digital box that says "Leave your comment." What special bond did you imagine was ever between us?
II,
I believe we agree on terms. I was referring mainly to the niqab and burkha, as they completely covered the body and face.
I know quite a few women who wear hijab. A few with whom I've discussed the Burkha.
So do you agree that the niqab/burkha are not called for specifically by the Qu'ran, and are likely later additions (rightly or wrongly) attributed to the Prophet?
So, at this point I think it's reasonable to suggest that no matter ones religious beliefs, this style of female covering is man-made. I've heard some theories that variations of the niqab/burkha predate Islam. Now the question is why. It seems like an extreme version of modesty, but that's just my opinion again.
Part 2
Do you think it's possible that it may also be an extreme version of female submission? Or perhaps that it has been used as an extreme version of submission, as in the case of Taliban ruled Afghanistan 1996? And believe me, I'm not spouting some "War on Terror" propaganda. I became interested in what was going on in Afghanistan when they took over. A former classmate of mine had relatives there when it happened. So I heard alot of accounts not heard in the news.
I think the concept of a man being more thoughtful about decisions when he knows the buck stops with him, unfortunately there are some men who abuse that gift. With the rise of fundamentalism in many religions, and their influence on society I don't think it is such a stretch to see the Burkha used as a device of oppression...especially if it is forced upon a woman. What good is "submission to God" if it's forced? I believe that's the definition of Islam, correct?
Whether we see the bikini-clad liberal anti-breeder on one side or the devout breeder of jihadists on the other, both "uniforms" represent a manifestation of radical autonomy.
Liberal female wears the bikini as a sign of being liberated from procreation and free to enjoy sex ALL THE TIME while devout Muslim female covers from head to toe signifying her dominant function as breeder of jihadists and extinguishing the notion of sex for pleasure.
It would be silly for us to still believe that most Muslim women wear the burka out of oppression instead of a sense of duty to their autonomous god. Muslim woman seek liberation through the jihadism of their warrior sons.
One female is warring against her own while the other is warring for her own... That much is obvious.
So do you agree that the niqab/burkha are not called for specifically by the Qu'ran, and are likely later additions (rightly or wrongly) attributed to the Prophet?-DMG
Before you get on your "employee of the week" high horse, of how nobody can respond to your conjecture, for the SAKE OF THOSE ("those"extending beyond DMG) unfamiliar with the material I will continue to address very common arguments that people tend to round-off as you are presenting. If you are offended by it, get a blog.
People commonly tend to focus on the issues surrounding niqab, burkha, the abandonment of eating pork & drinking alcohol etc. in their view of Islam. Aside from the major contributions to civilization according to Islamic theology, the most major contribution is their unique understanding of monotheism. But, regardless the veil is still a major issue in the West.
Technically in traditional Islamic jurisprudence the issue is not up for debate amongst laymen.
There is disagreement amongst traditional scholars in the Islamic tradition. Within the Hanafi (which is practiced in Afghanistan and I think Shafi'i) jurisprudence school it is unlawful for women to leave the house without the face veil. In the Malaki jurisprudence school the woman is not permitted to show her face ONLY to non-Muslims. However even within these schools there is debate.
The four Sunni schools of Islamic law, Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali, are identical in approximately 75 percent of their legal conclusions, while the remaining questions, variances within a single family of scholars of the Holy Qur'an and prophetic sunna, are traceable to methodological differences in understanding or authentication of the primary textual evidence, differing viewpoints sometimes reflected in even a single school.
^^
Reliance of the Traveller: A classic manual of Islamic Sacred Law
One female is warring against her own while the other is warring for her own... That much is obvious.
As long as all-of-em (cept little bedraggled and beatdown Becky) is warring against your peasant ass, it's all good!!!
The Qur'an does not instruct Muslims how to pray. The instructions in the ritual of prayer is transmitted through the traditional scholars collections and strict adherence to not only textual evidence of the Prophet but through inherited physical practice by successors. For instance it is one thing to read a magazine displaying different kung-fu forms, it's another thing to have a live instructor who learned from their instructor and so on. The Bagwa, tai chi, longfist etc systems are codified and preserved. Likewise, with practices not found in the Qur'an this is the same principle used (specifically amongst the Maliki school most common to Africa).
So to say something is "not called for specifically by the Qu'ran" does not TOTALLY apply to Islamic theology. The system of adhering to revelation is completely different to the concept of Bible translations.
So do you agree that the niqab/burkha are not called for specifically by the Qu'ran, and are likely later additions (rightly or wrongly) attributed to the Prophet?
The style of dress probably pre-dated the Prophet (PBUH).
So, at this point I think it's reasonable to suggest that no matter ones religious beliefs, this style of female covering is man-made.
What style of male or female covering is not man made?
I've heard some theories that variations of the niqab/burkha predate Islam. Now the question is why.
Well, think about the region. Blazing sun and sand storms a good part of the year. Isn't it plausible that the outfits started as protective gear, so to speak?
The traditional Arab man wears long flowing gowns and also covers his hair. Some even cover their faces. Think of all the pictures of Saudis, Taleban, etc. you have seen - the men in long gowns and hair covering.
Is it "oppression" or "extreme" modesty if a man does it?
Well, think about the region. Blazing sun and sand storms a good part of the year. Isn't it plausible that the outfits started as protective gear, so to speak?-II
It does stand to reason that people would take every measure to protect themselves from the sun, however according to Hamza Yusuf Hanson it is historical fact that in Medina there were women walking around bare breasted. The other thing is that this is the same deductive reasoning that's used by some scientists arguing the lightening of humanoids were due to the need for clothing in the cold regions of Europe. Concluding that Africans remained dark because of lack of clothing. The African botty scratcher theory.
Part 2
Do you think it's possible that it may also be an extreme version of female submission?
I don't really understand your question Doc. Islam and any other sane theology calls for free will in the conduct of one's life. Anything that is forced on another at gunpoint, whether it be a burka or a government, is oppressive.
I think the concept of a man being more thoughtful about decisions when he knows the buck stops with him, unfortunately there are some men who abuse that gift.
Of course there are. Doesn't make the concept any less true. There are doctors who lie in their research studies. There are doctors who abuse their positions of authority. Does that make the entire medical industry flawed?
I don't think it is such a stretch to see the Burkha used as a device of oppression...especially if it is forced upon a woman.
Apparently the matter is one of choice. If a woman chooses to dress that way, is it still "oppressive"?
I mean, what isn't a device of oppression when forced upon another person? LOL!! If someone forced you at gunpoint to eat hotdogs all day, hot dogs would become a device of oppression! If we saw forced hot dog eating on the 6:00 news each night, Americans would boycot hot dogs, yell at people who ate hot dogs, rip them out of their hands and, perhaps, even try to make hot dogs illegal. The more self-righteous would scowl everytime they see a hot dog and say "don't you know those are used for oppression of women"? :-)
What good is "submission to God" if it's forced?
There is no such thing as forced submission to God. It's an oxymoron. Lack of a choice implicates submission to the person applying the force.
"What style of male or female covering is not man made?"
By "man made" I'm referring to something that does not have its origins from a deity.
"Well, think about the region. Blazing sun and sand storms a good part of the year. Isn't it plausible that the outfits started as protective gear, so to speak?"
As a matter of fact I did consider that angle. However, as you state anything that would be detrimental to her health (inadequate access to sunshine) would likely not have been a viable adaptation (covered women with Vitamin D deficiency during their childbearing years, would have not likely produced many children).
Often times people from these desert regions will wear something that is reflective rather than absorptive of suns rays, helping them to keep cool in the heat of the day.
As far as oppression, the question is really if wearing these garments are a choice for the men and women. In the case of Taliban rule in 1996 Afghanistan the burkha and niqab were forced upon the women there, men were also forced to grow beards of a certain length. About "extreme modesty", are men required to cover their hands and face with heavy dark cloth?
"Anything that is forced on another at gunpoint, whether it be a burka or a government, is oppressive. "
That's my main point. Free will to choose.
I'm not talking about the system of Islam being flawed, I think you misunderstood me. I only mention the potential for abuse because it is human nature to sometimes take things too far. Abuse can also be institutional, and I'm wondering about it's potential in regard to the concept of submission.
"Apparently the matter is one of choice. If a woman chooses to dress that way, is it still "oppressive"?"
Absolutely not.
"There is no such thing as forced submission to God. It's an oxymoron. Lack of a choice implicates submission to the person applying the force."
Hence my quotations around submission. But people seem to do alot of things out of "tradition" or "religious practice". If a woman is forced to wear niqab or burkha as a requirement to be submissive to her husband or God, there is no true submission, and the practice is fruitless, and nothing more than tradition.
op·pres·sion /əˈprɛʃən/ [uh-presh-uhn]
–noun
1. the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
Anything that is used in a burdensome, cruel or unjust manner is oppression - by definition - whether it is clothing, hot dogs or governments.
The appropriate question is why the fixation with how Muslim women dress?
About "extreme modesty", are men required to cover their hands and face with heavy dark cloth?
You're mixing concepts. "Required" to wear suggests force - which, is of course, oppression and I've addressed that issue already.
If we are talking about voluntarily choosing to cover hands and face in dark cloth, well that's on that woman. It's incredibly unhealthy behavior, but lots of people do unhealthy things like smoke, drink, homosexuality, etc.
So, again, why the obsession with a Muslim woman's unhealthy wardrobe choices?
Is there something about the way she dresses that makes our society uncomfortable with its own standards of behavior?
I only mention the potential for abuse because it is human nature to sometimes take things too far. Abuse can also be institutional, and I'm wondering about it's potential in regard to the concept of submission.
There is potential for abuse of anything. It's nothing unique to Islam, whether there is a concept of submission to God or not.
But people seem to do alot of things out of "tradition" or "religious practice".
No there aren't. There are a lot of people who are too lazy to use their brains. So they do lots of stupid, meaningless rituals in their days and then look for post hoc justifications for the behavior. A nitwhit whose cognitive functions hardly exceed that of a gnat has no ability to understand why he behaves the way he does.
Monkey see Monkey do is generally the best explanation for the behavior of the masses.
"The appropriate question is why the fixation with how Muslim women dress?"
No fixation, it's the topic of discussion. I have an opinion.
"You're mixing concepts. "Required" to wear suggests force - which, is of course, oppression and I've addressed that issue already."
I'm not mixing concepts, I'm responding to your previous question regarding men.
Again, there's no "obsession" with the way some Muslim women dress. I'm discussing choice, and looking for the root reasons why some women dress in that particular manner. We agree it's not called for in the Qu'ran, and is likely not originally rooted in Islam. I'm curious as to WHY there is a push for women to dress that way to appear modest.
"So they do lots of stupid, meaningless rituals in their days and then look for post hoc justifications for the behavior. "
OK. Is wearing the Burkha one of these "stupid meaningless rituals"? Why or why not?
Part 2
What purpose does the Burkha or niqab have? You are a Muslim woman. Do you feel that you are submitting to God any less by not wearing the burkha or niqab? Of course not. So why have it?
Just to be clear, I'm not talking about women who freely choose to wear this style of dress. I'm interested in women who are not in a position where they can choose.
The alternative to the burkha, of course isn't clear heels and a thong. I could think of alot more comfortable clothing in 110 degree heat that also appears modest.
So far it seems like we agree on most of the points. It's not necessarily the article of clothing that I find oppressive (that could change if I were standing in the middle of the desert at noon...), it's the lack of choice.
Good debate. What's happened to you? We've been civil to each other like the last three or four threads now.
Hijab is a word that can be used as a noun and a verb and it basically means to cover. The Burqua is a style of hijab that is indigenous to Afganistan. It has a round, flat headpiece, and then has fabric that comes down around the body, with a lattice over the eyes so women can see. There are half burkas that come down to the waist/hips area, and there are full length ones.
In other countries there are other styles of hijab including the abaya, the nikab, the chador, the khimar. There are many ways in which a woman who wishes to cover in public can do so.
The tradition of covering predates Islam. Some scholars think that the tradition of veiling comes from Ancient Babylon. High priced prostitutes would cover themselves when they went outdoors, because the only men that had the right to look at them were the ones that paid for the privilege. Other women then began adopting that practice, wanting to be seen as valuable and precious as the prostitutes.
Interesting Lola. Have you heard of that theory II?
Oh, yeah, the submissive in me finds the idea of covering completely in public and only one person - my husband - seeing all of me very titillating. Yes, I am strange.
L
Im sorry, which theory?
Im sorry, which theory?
I was asking Intellectual Insurgent (II) if she had heard of the theory on the origins of the burkha.
I had not heard that theory before, but it is equally interesting. And plausible.
I'll respond to the remainder in a little while. Got some work to do...
I'm curious as to WHY there is a push for women to dress that way to appear modest.
Probably for the same reason there is a push for women in our society to dress like whores to get attention. Perhaps there is something about the attire of the female that speaks to the cultural state of the society. But, I don't know. Ask the people who are doing the pushing, assuming there is such a push.
What purpose does the Burkha or niqab have?
Depends on who is using it. What purpose does a hot dog have? What purpose does a kitchen knife have? What purpose does a building have?
You are a Muslim woman. Do you feel that you are submitting to God any less by not wearing the burkha or niqab? Of course not. So why have it?
Why not have it?
How I feel about my submission to God is completely irrelevant to whether there should or should not be a burka or niqab or whatever. It is up to each Muslim woman to decide how to express her religiousness.
But, seriously, tell me why it is that in Western society, the highest expression of a woman's "choice" is to murder her unborn child, but when a Muslim woman exercises her "choice" to dress in a way she deems modest, so-called liberals, progressives suggest that she's not really choosing.
Somehow women who have abortions are the most mature, deliberative women about the "choices" they make in life, but Muslim women are immature little children who, even when choosing things for themselves, aren't really choosing because they are "oppressed". The double standard is nauseating. And, in the name of "liberating" these Muslim women, the entire discourse robs them of their status as full human beings who able to exercise free will.
If choice is the sole standard for judging the behavior, then what's the problem?
Is it that the reality is that "choice" as a woman's "right" really has nothing to do with the availability of options? Rather, it has to do with choosing what liberals think she should choose.
It's not necessarily the article of clothing that I find oppressive (that could change if I were standing in the middle of the desert at noon...), it's the lack of choice.
Indeed. And like we've covered thus far, anything that deprives humans of their ability to exercise free will (choice) is unGodly. Whether it happens in the name of Islam or under the banner of "democracy".
II,
Come on, I'm being serious here and you have a unique perspective on this. I'm trying to learn for you.
"Depends on who is using it. What purpose does a hot dog have? What purpose does a kitchen knife have? What purpose does a building have?"
Food. Cutting Food. Place of residence or business. You didn't give me an answer. I'm curious as to what purpose the burkha and niqab have outside of modesty if originally it wasn't required by the Qu'ran.
How you feel about your submission to your god is relevant to this conversation because your choice to not wear the Burkha tells me that it's not necessary to appear modest before him. But I'd prefer to hear that from you if that's in fact how you feel.
I'm not asking if there should or should not be a burkha. I've said that I don't care.
Let's not get distracted by abortion, because it's irrelevant to this conversation, and I'd like to stay on point.
The only way I think to understand another culture is to ask somebody close to that culture, that's why I'm asking you. If you won't answer my questions, you can't fault me for being an ignorant "Westerner".
I'm not sure why you are editorializing about a double standard, if you've got an issue with people not respecting the choices of that culture, don't tell me about. I'm not taunting you, I'm sincerely asking questions, so that I might better understand that culture.
Nobody ever said or alluded to "choice" being the sole measure for judging behavior.
Quite honestly, I don't care if she want's to wear depleted uranium G-strings, that's her decision.
On my way to a conference tomorrow, so I probably won't get back to this before Sunday. Thanks for your insight.
Let me try to help you out there DMG. Hijab can have a multitude of uses, and modesty is just one of them. It can be worn to mark the wearer as Muslim when they go out into the world. Hijab isnt just an article(s) of clothing, its a way of behaving and conducting oneself, so hijab can also be used as reminder to the wearer and those she comes into contact with that they must behave modestly.
Hijab can also be used to cover the hair. There are some Muslims who believe that a womans hair shouldnt be seen by the public. In fact, when I visited the Islamic Center one of my students was severely chastized by the Imam when her head covering came off. I thought he was a little too hard on her - the scarves they provided were small! Hijab can also be used to determine who is a woman and who is not. In some Islamic cultures, only "women", ie folks who menstruate, cover their heads. Girls dont. And sometimes women cover their heads because their families make them. Thats not what is supposed to happen, but in some families (and cultures) that is the case.
I kinda hope this clears things up somewhat!
L
I'm curious as to what purpose the burkha and niqab have outside of modesty if originally it wasn't required by the Qu'ran.
I already posited my theories on that above. Lola offered a few more plausible explanations. I am not sure what else there is.
How you feel about your submission to your god is relevant to this conversation because your choice to not wear the Burkha tells me that it's not necessary to appear modest before him.
You assume that I am a standard of modesty. Perhaps I am not modest or modest enough. I ditched my itty bitty bikini after I had my first daughter and now I wear a one-piece. The latter is more modest than the former, but certainly not the modesty that a proper Muslim woman should exhibit and I am not ready to give up swimming or SCUBA diving just yet.
I am not the standard of modesty by which the necessity of Islamic covering should be judged.
Post a Comment