One less Plantation Negro Democrat pretending there is a dime's bit of difference between the Democratic Party and the Republicans. There exists 1 party, financed by the same sources simply herding Plantation Negros & Crackas to perpetual peasant status."I've examined this race in every possible way, and I keep returning to the same fundamental conclusion: If I run, the likely result would be a brutal and highly negative Democratic primary -- a primary where the winner emerges weakened and the Republican strengthened," Ford wrote in an opinion article in Tuesday's New York Times. "I refuse to do anything that would help Republicans win a Senate seat in New York, and give the Senate majority to..." Washington Post
135 comments:
Now that Desiree Rogers is out of the way, up next on Obama's hit list is Charles "The Dominican Dandy" Rangel.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-03-01/the-scandal-that-could-doom-the-democrats/
Mak B.
Why do you source the attack on Rangel with Obama?
(And is my man really Dominican?)
He was only running because the banks he works for wanted him in office, for obvious reasons.
But dude has terrible political instincts. He never comes off sincere about anything except winning.
And he couldn't figure out that a hi yella dude like Barack had to marry the brilliant brown skin cutie Michelle to win. Instead Harold marry blond Becky, killing his appeal to black women. I don't know how anybody wins without black women's support.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/opinion/02herbert.html?hp
Ask your boy Constructive Feedback about this when he tears his eyes away from the titties.
DV, I know this guy very well ....Did some political business with the entire family. Most people have no idea about his Dad or his Uncles( one in jail for political misdeeds and money) history in politics. They all are a family of "undertakers"(Funeral Homes is the families mainstay), therefore they are used to dealing with the dead :) . They made boo-ku money from putting a lot brothers to rest in the south( put some celebs to bed also).
The family has been political royalty in Memphis for half a century and plays the HNIC "House nugga" role for a long time by the PTB. If you really investigated this clan you would come away with some eye opening "cons" that will blow you away.
Harold was ordained by his Dad to take his seat ala Bush Sr. and Jr. Harold is just another articulate "Barry Sotero" like Brother who plays his role for both sides in the WWF(one party system). He did not even need to be co-opted. Born that way Bra.
Everything is and was scripted for him. Look at his financial records and check out his portfolio. The brother along with his entire family would give Judas a good name.
Offered without comment, other than I'm interested to see how this header and article are digested here.
GOP Rep. implies blacks were better off as slaves’
Harold was Wall Street's Democratic backstop in this election. I've never seen such a fuss over such an average brotha. In political circles, it got to be a bad thing to say anything less than "Harold's the greatest." I know cats 50x tighter than this dude that can't even get elected to the junior college trustee board.
Dorca's Daddy
I heard about that comment.
People who think abortion is worse than slavery, don't understand that slavery helped create the conditions that make abortion such a problem for black folks today.
It's all connected, but cats don't want to see that, and thus they make dumb statements.
He's a typical white boy who never thought about black people past worrying if they were going to rob him, or wondering when they were going to finish washing his car.
Harold Ford was just trying to get some attention, because he's releasing his memoir "More Davids than Goliaths" that's due to come out this year. He's just trying to sell his book that's all. I live in Tennessee and this dude and his family is corrupt.
"In this country we had slavery for God knows how long," Franks told Stark. "And now we look back on it and we say, 'Well how blind were they, what was the matter with them.' ... And yet today half of all black children are aborted. Half of all black children are aborted. Far more black children, far more of the African-American community, is being devastated by the policies of today than were being devastated by the policies of slavery." GOP Rep. implies blacks were better off as slaves’" Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ)
ummm ... aborted or enslaved?
aborted or enslaved?
ummm ....
Which one would I choose ...
um...?
Abort me now ... or let me born into slavery, but alive ... with a chance to get free...
um ...
which would I choose?
um ...
Oh.
That's right.
I'm a "biological glob".
I can't choose.
I can't have a preference.
Why ... why ... I haven't even watched Star Wars yet. I'm not really human.
I'm just a biological glob ...
but ...
but ...
I'm the Blackest Biological Glob On The Internet.
Representative Franks got a lot of heart.
"He's a typical white boy who never thought about black people past worrying if they were going to rob him, or wondering when they were going to finish washing his car." Franks
That's some racist shit Big Man.
Maybe dude is just a Christian.
Maybe he fell in love with a sonogram.
Maybe he too wonders why black women are 13% of the population but have 40% of the abortions.
The days of black men "washing cars" for white boys is long gone.
Why you perpetuating that meme?
"DV, I know this guy very well ....Did some political business with the entire family. Most people have no idea about his Dad or his Uncles( one in jail for political misdeeds and money) history in politics." hot wax
Hot Waaaaaax!
My man.
I met this cat.
At a bbq at Lawrence Bender's house in Beverly Hills.
I was sitting at a table with Harold, Quinton Tarrantino and Salman Rushdie.
I was good friends with Harold's fiance at the time. They were having some issues. So she asked me to hollar at him. Denmark Vesey style. To see what's up.
You know me. I tell dude straight up. Get A Chick.
Work it out. Of course she's tripping. She's a woman. She's supposed to trip.
I hit him with whole "De Facto Homo" spiel and everything.
He himmed and hawed. Made weak eye contact and mumbled some shit about "trying".
I knew right there. Puuuuuunk muhfuggah.
But I said: "Look here Harold. I don't get a chance to hollar at Congressman often. So I'm just going to ask you. Fuck we doing in Iraq? The American people don't want this. There were no WMD's? What's up with AIPAC? Why are they dictating foreign policy?"
Dude looked at me like I was stone out of my mind.
He looked at me like I was speaking Arabic with a lisp.
Anyway .. shit. That was 7 or 8 years ago.
Since then he married little Ms. Bilderberger.
DV
You need to tell the cats here in the NO that the days of washing cars for white folks are gone, they'll be glad to get the memo.
Just make sure you tell them how they are going to earn their money without hitting the block.
Anybody pushing the meme that black folks were better off in slavery than dead is a fool.
What's death? Why is it so horrible?
Come on son, you talking about God, and you still worried about death?
That don't compute.
Black people were not better off in slavery than they are now. I don't care what the abortion rate is today.
And anybody who pushes that meme deserves whatever flack they catch. I'm guessing most of these people have no idea what slavery was, what the world was like here in America during slavery. Not just on the Plantation, but off it.
"You need to tell the cats here in the NO that the days of washing cars for white folks are gone, they'll be glad to get the memo."
OK.
"Hey Niggas. The days of washing cars for white folks are gone!! ..."
Now.
"If you happen to be washing cars. You just washing cars.
You are NOT washing cars FO WHITE FOLKS.
That's TWO different things Big Man.
Even in the NO ... brotha got a choice.
Shit.
Get A Gun.
Rob somebody.
"Anybody pushing the meme that black folks were better off in slavery than dead is a fool." Big Man.
Anybody
pushing
the
meme
that black folks were better off dead than slaves
are
a
damn
fool.
You can escape slavery.
Let me see somebody escape death.
"I'm guessing most of these people have no idea what slavery was, what the world was like here in America during slavery. Not just on the Plantation, but off it."
Big Man, do you know what slavery was like here in America?
The smaller the family, the greater the chance that the family will succeed financially, health-wise, everything.
Abortion is the worst way to handle it.
But would I advise a teenage girl, no options, to get one? Hell yes. Done it, and would do it again.
Then say use birth control or stop sexin'.
And go back to school.
that dude said...
"The smaller the family, the greater the chance that the family will succeed financially"
... and fail biologically.
Abortion as birth control is a trap.
They marketed it to black folks as "a right".
You can get Negros to do anything if you tell them "white folks won't let them".
There was always abortion.
What we have today is Industrialized Abortion + Marketing.
13% ... 40%
Speaks for itself.
@DV,
"Abortion as birth control is a trap."
I hit you with this yesterday on another thread however, very relevant to aforementioned topic!
Caught this yesterday:
Every day in the United States, 1,452 African-American children are violently executed...before they're ever born. The "Say-So" March is designed to draw annual attention to this shocking reality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLnNi_qb7nY&feature=player_embedded
Barry at his Best!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfFVKqHWJU0
you said:
"80% of the abortion clinics in black neighborhoods!"
www.blackgenocide.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLnNi_qb7nY&feature=player_embedded
Support Maafa 21! Bra
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/billboard-controversy-signs-atlanta-black-children-endangered-species/story?id=9888149
I'm the Blackest Biological Glob On The Internet.
ok foetus...,
{a foetus is not a person, it just has a chance of becoming one}
DV,
My job was the Black corporate pimp(VP of Business Development and Urban Development) for mega Energy Corp and part of the job was to provide black politicians with the tools they needed. Legally, (thank god) :)- via donations, sponsorship, book deals, foundations, family member hookups with other companies, celebs, etc.
Most Corpos including us, targeted him, Jesse Jr., Kawme Kilpratrick types (young up and coming) all over the country. I discovered that they all were spineless, gutless, low self esteem , fronting Mugga fugga's with not a care about any community-black or white in being elected. Cynthia McKinney had more testicles and morality and manhood than all of them combine. Young brothers in politics ain't what we had in the 60's DV.
Helped the the brother put on a concert event and fundraiser in DC. His uncle John was tricking every one in Tenn. and had the Feds looking up my ass for a year. Yes Amarie, I got called in the State AG office in regards to his dealings with State Universities and Hospitals :). Had no idea how bad he was playing. Talked to Harold about him acted like his uncle was a Klansman or something. No loyalty. That is when you know the guy sold his soul.
Conversating about the Plantation's agenda is one thing, but there are real voices lost in this: the aborters. Maybe y'all need to shift the gaze and examine why women choose abortion - 54% use some form of contraception, almost 50% are likely to become repeat aborters and a majority identify themselves as Christian and 75% cite an economic, academic or familial reason as reason for abortion. (Source)
If these girls and women were to have kept their babies, then according to the pro-lifers on this thread they have 'won' against the Plantation...but how is that a personal victory against the aforementioned multiple, interlocking forces pushing them to abort? How does that address what's possibly at the heart of all this; sex without commitment - 60% of aborters are unmarried.
And if 'save the babies' is real talk, not just blogtalk how many of you would adopt/foster or have adopted/fostered a child?
A lot of women have elective abortions because they are irresponsible and cannot take the heat. They fuck without the tacit acceptance that there is always the possibility of pregnancy. They want to be able to have their cake and eat it too. I think it is wrong to allow elective abortion in a society because it cheapens life. It tells irresponsible FUCKS that it is okay for them to screw the world with no consequence. All they have to do is take a morning after pill or get the baby surgically removed ie KILLED because they don't want to be saddled with the responsibility.
I have known and been friends with many women who've aborted. They are stained from this shit for YEARS afterward. And why? If you cannot accept the possibility of pregnancy, why are you fucking in the first place?
My Middle sister was dating some guys then got serious with one of them. They were talking about marriage some years down the road, then she came up pregnant. My sister said: "Whoa! Well shit, you KNOW I'm g'on keep this baby. Ain't no muthafuckin question about it. It ain't what I planned but this baby is a gift. Maybe it'll help me get my shit together."
The problem is that we look at babies as liabilities where in truth they are assets. Children propagate our society. Without children a society is as good as dead. And a society that doesn't value its children is also as good as dead.
The government, locales, states and even federally needs to give more incentives for people to KEEP their children and there needs to be more options for people to develop themselves and their potential so they can provide for their children.
Around the same time me and my sister were pregnant with our babies, another family member was also pregnant. She chose to have an abortion. This devastated our family, especially since I told this person that if she ever got pregnant and didn't want the baby ME AND MY HUSBAND WOULD GLADLY RAISE her child. Instead she fucking killed her baby because her boyfriends' parents wouldn't have been cool with her being pregnant. Her decision sent ripples of sadness, shame and pain throughout the family. She never needed to resort to that. But she is a glaring example of a lazy AMERICAN privileged FUCK of a person who is perfectly fine to screw but not accept the consequences of her behavior. And I love her, but our relationship was damaged her her legal murder.
MR
So you think abortion should be illegal?
Wow, that was fierce Mahndisa!
But:
What kind of abortion do you support then?
"A lot of women have elective abortions because they are irresponsible and cannot take the heat." M.R
A lot being how many? Maybe for your friends money and academic pressures were the least of their worries, but for others; poverty is inextricably linked to unintended pregnancy:
"The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women."
@ Rig
"The problem is that we look at babies as liabilities where in truth they are assets. Children propagate our society. Without children a society is as good as dead. And a society that doesn't value its children is also as good as dead."
The most elegant statement of the day !!!! co- sign, co- sign, cosign!!
As I said people, please look at the vids I posted.
Please join Maafa 21.
www.maafa21.com
www.maafa21.com
www.maafa21.com
www.maafa21.com
PLAY THE TRAILER!!!!
Rev. Childress has said this is not a political issue but a eugenics/genocide issue that has been going on forever.
YOU CAN NOT TALK ABOUT ABORTION AND THE BLACK COMMUNITY WITHOUT BRINGING UP MARGRET SANGER , BILL GATES SR. , PRESCOTT BUSH... Planned Parenthood was designed(by the aforementioned people) to exterminate blacks as a part of the Eugenics movement. It was to stop exactly what Rig talked about. It is being marketed to us currently by even our own US pres- jeeeeez!.
BM, before we get wrapped around the axel of THE "red herring' (legal or not) Just research the US history of abortion it was about us.
Read about Ruth G. comment on the 7-2 SCOTUS ruling on abortion.
What Does Ruth Bader Ginsburg Mean By “The Populations That We Don’t Want to Have Too Many Of”?
JUSTICE GINSBURG: Yes, the ruling about that surprised me. [Harris v. McRae — in 1980 the court upheld the Hyde Amendment, which forbids the use of Medicaid for abortions.] Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of. So that Roe was going to be then set up for Medicaid funding for abortion. [Emphasis mine]
http://newledger.com/2009/07/what-does-ruth-bader-ginsburg-mean-by-the-populations-that-we-dont-want-to-have-too-many-of/
http://saynsumthn.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/what-does-planed-parenthood-ruth-bader-ginsburg-and-richard-nixon-have-in-common-racism/
What does Planned Parenthood, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Richard Nixon have in common? Racism ?
Maafa21
A new film exposes Black Genocide from Abortion
After three years of research, Life Dynamics, a national organization based in Denton, Tx, has produced a documentary which exposes the racist roots of abortion called: Maafa21.
Maafa21 meticulously chronicles the links from slavery to colonization to Darwin to Eugenics to sterilization to birth control and finally to abortion. Maafa 21 shows, without exception, how African-Americans are the targets of the social elite. You’ll learn that civil rights leaders in the 1960’s gave a clear warning that abortion and population control was a tool of Black Genocide. You will see the links between racism, eugenics, and Planned Parenthood’s effort to market abortion to the African American Community. Maafa 21 emotionally chronicles the story of an African American woman who was eugenically sterilized at the age of 14, a riveting testimony guaranteed to render the audience speechless. Photos, newspaper clippings, documentation, and direct quotes make Maafa 21 highly credible.
In the few weeks since Maafa21 has been released, there have already been two showings of Maafa21 to Congress. Even some members of the Black Caucus have viewed this documentary.
Shocking fact:
In a recent New York Times interview , Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg told Emily Bazelon that,
“…I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.”
The “Populations” Ginsburg referred to in that interview is clearly defined in, Maafa21.
WARNING: Maafa 21 is not for the faint of heart and proves its points with original documents and racist sound bites, which will offend most viewers. Viewer discretion is advised!
Please watch the trailer for Maafa21 here:
www.maafa21.com
Yes, I believe abortion should be illegal UNLESS it is ruled medically necessary to save the life of the mother. Although, I've read that such cases are very, very rare.
Imagine a society where people actually take responsibility for their actions?! Elective abortions would NOT exist.
KW, you mention that impoverished women get abortions more often than other socioeconomic groups. It was DESIGNED that way. That is why there are more planned parenthoods in poorer areas.
There is something seriously wrong with that. If planned parenthoods were doing their job, the pregnancy rates would have declined in these neighborhoods. But instead the abortion rates are high but the pregnancy rate doesn't seem to go down. Why is that?
A culture that says it is okay to get rid of a baby if you cannot hang. That is it basically.
And poor women have incentive to stay poor and have babies if you think about it. They get free healthcare, free food, free WIC for their babies until five years of age and some states and locals get the poor kids dental care as well.
If ever there was a time to be poor, it is now and in the USA. With all the perks that poor people get, I am surprised that they feel a need to murder their children with such high frequency. They are doing what the elite wants them to do.
If we really were the Christian based nation that some profess us to be, this discussion wouldn't even be happening right now because for every irresponsible fuck of a woman who got pregnant with an unwanted child, there would be a couple who would adopt them.
As an aside, I am pissed at men who act as little more than sperm donors in these situations. My maternal Great Grandfather was Clyde Anderson out of Schreveport Louisiana. This nigga had TWENTY CHILDREN with Lawd knows how many baby's mamas! My Grandfather said that when he was about twenty years old, he met up with his dad and his dad took him about town and just about every other person they saw was a child that he had fathered but not parented. This is also a serious issue...
@ Big Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zyswRh3Sj4&feature=player_embedded#
Nothing to do with a women rights to choose.
As an aside, I think that Maafa21 presents good information but I think it is a front by a group that doesn't really give a damn about black people; they are using it as a vehicle to transmit their political agenda. However, sometimes the truth breeds strange bed fellows. Abortion seems to be an issue that unites fundamentalist conservative Christians, Hindis, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims (after the fourth month) and others. There seems to be this overarching belief that children are important *whoodathunkit* and ought to be protected from assaults on the womb and once they get out of the womb as well. Whether or not you believe in some higher purpose is another issue but it is interesting that the opposition to abortion crosses cultural and religious lines.
A Sikh man was put in prison for murdering his daughter's suitor. Why? The daughter had an abortion for this suitor; in irreparable harm on the soul of a family so the Sikh man murdered him. We usually don't hear about this ethnic group being caught for criminal acts. In my area, Sikhs are merchants and engineers. Yet, this man was compelled to 'right' the wrong on his family honor. Interesting....
"{a foetus is not a person, it just has a chance of becoming one}"
It's got ONE HELL OF A CHANCE.
Unless of course .. it's parents are black and he lives in America.
Then he has substantially less of a chance.
Hot Wax
DV's been talking about Sanger's history for a while now, I'm hip. Hip to the Maafa 21 as well, and I was the one who hipped DV to the movement in Georgia.
But, the question ultimately becomes, do you think abortion should be legal?
If your argument is about whether it's right or wrong (or in the case of DV healthy or unhealthy) then you're saying it should be a personal choice.
If you're saying it's so immoral and wrong it should be illegal, then you're advocating a law.
But, if you're like Mahindsa, you acknowledge that the real problem is poor sexual choices.
So why not deal with the real problem? If laws are your solution, then honestly you need to discuss outlawing fornication. That will surely reduce abortions, right?
But, nobody is pushing for that.
Instead, we have folks pushing to outlaw abortion. Seems strange, right?
Hey Big Man, we need an approach that uses multiple streams to get 'er done! I want abortion to be a word that kids don't even KNOW about in the future. What I mean is that one day I hope we look back at these times as a time of unparalleled barbarism. Child sacrifices at the alters of egotistical, self loathing and irresponsible fucks; that is what elective abortion is to me.
But Big Man, I think that poor choices are no longer demonized like they used to be. Guilt plays a large role in getting people to do the right thing sometimes. And somewhere down the line, it became a sin to feel guilty or contrite about anything. It is wrong to say that you should have done something but didn't. This feel good mentality does absolutely nothing to protect babies and children.
So I am all about teaching people to use common sense in their personal encounters and relationships. Sadly though, not everyone is on the same page with me on this.
MR
I don't like abortion. I don't women to have abortions. I think they do them harm in many ways.
But, I don't want them to be illegal.
I feel like the folks who are hardcore against abortion should be willing to make sacrifices.
Like outlawing fornication. I mean, how important is it to y'all?
It seems like folks are cool with telling other folks "You can't do this" but not so cool saying "I can't do this."
There are a lot of reasons why people have abortions. I'd rather see folks get excited about dealing with those issues than pushing to outlaw abortions. History shows us that will not stop abortions, it will only make them more dangerous.
Feels like the War on Drugs.
Why do you source the attack on Rangel with Obama?—DV
Yo DV, I didn’t say Obama was the source of the attack on Rangel. The source would be right wing pols and their MSM mouthpieces.
However, Rangel and his troubles has become a parachute on the backs of Democrats in the race for 2010 Congressional seats.
And anyone Obama perceives to be a drag on the agenda of those he represents becomes the next candidate for a “bus toss.”
“Obama is the marquee representative of a permanent set of interests. Every.single.one of the fungible cast of characters backing his role in this grand play is expendable.” – Bro. Nulan
The interesting thing to me is that The Prefect Proxy can see a speck of dust on the shoulders of his brothers and sisters, but he can’t see the 4x4 in his own eye.
“Dominican Dandy,” the former description for Sammy “Steroid” Sosa, was just word play on the villa in the DR which is the primary source of Rangel’s problems. His bio says that his dad was Puerto Rican.
M. and other pro-lifers, what is your take on abortion due to incest, rape, or the presence of some sort of fetal deformity?
But how can you say that the Guv'mnt provides when that provision is often insufficient (and this has been a cornerstone of some pro-life folks' argument in other matters e.g. food) and perpetuates the cycle of poverty from one generation to another.
If you only support abortion when the mother/child's life is at risk what about in cases of rape and incest? Or if the threat to the woman and foetus is outside of the woman's body?
For that Sikh man that has killed his daughter's suitor; beyond America's borders there are another 10 men who'd beat or stone their daughter's for having fallen pregnant.
Big Man
Co-sign, it is like the War on Drugs or being anti-prostitution - neither here nor there. It is more about fixing a broken society and seriously talking abt abstainence, helping lone parents and foster kids rather than calling women babykillers.
It's okay Big Man, you've just been brainwashed a bit by the media to accept that abortion is merely a choice. But in time, I hope you will change your perspective. While I can see the correlation between outlawing abortion versus the war on drugs, the essence of the reasoning for drug prohibition is markedly different than the reasoning to outlaw abortion.
At the crux, you and perhaps even Cnu might view such draconian laws as people trying to boss others around. And when it comes to the war on drugs, I couldn't agree more. People ought to be able to do drugs if they want to ingest drugs in THEIR bodies, far be it from me to stop them.
On the other hand, universally unprovoked murder is seen as a moral wrong. No matter what society you look at. Even the Kombai who are flipping cannibals have a code of honor where they would not consume the body parts of an innocent person; only their enemies.
There is something to this because a society cannot function if citizens are allowed to murder other innocent citizens for no reason. That is the basis of our laws isn't it? You can fuck yo'self up but as soon as you start hurting other people, you are committing a crime.
I submit that abortion is legalized murder but the war on drugs is social control.
How come we are all against killing innocent people except when it comes to abortion?
I utterly HATE war. I am not down for wars of any type. I've come to these conclusions (despite what I may have said in the past) because I KNOW that innocents get killed in WARS. The people who do all the agitating get away but the innocents and the poor are cannon fodder. War is wrong because it disproportionally KILLS innocent people. And that is why abortion is wrong 100% of the time in elective cases because it is the legally sanctioned MURDER of an innocent human being.
By all rights, we think of this is WRONG. To make it more real, consider a woman that had a baby then killed it once it came out of the womb. She's up for first degree murder and is a societal paraiah. And with good reason. But yet it is okay for my relative to kill her baby, and she doesn't have to serve prison time because she murdered it in the womb.
I see no difference between both crimes and hopefully in time, society won't either.
Mahndisa,
For you, at what point does an embryo or foetus become a person?
@BM
Thanks for the heads up. I wondered if anyone had talked about Maafa 21 before.
In regards to your question: I was brought up with a strong objectivism background therefore I hate government, authority and most laws in any shape and form. The elite practice cannon law which provides you from hurting anyone else but leaves a lot open to self policing.
It is not that I want to be immoral or anything but I know that gov. take any subject and creates law for tyranny and robbery.
Case in point on this subject, last year some 17 year old chick paid a dude 100 bucks to kick the shit out of her in order for her to lose her baby in late term. Bad thing, Bad idea.
However, now they want to pass a "law" to prevent that from happening, so now they can make a mother who fell in the supermarket a criminal for losing her baby on that fall. All the extremes are crazy by our corrupt gov and lawyers.
Big Man look at the prisons and figure out how many people are in jail for non violent crimes and basically working in the new slavery system. Making it illegal will only add more and be a checkmate also.
Use a condom? The talc will make sure they have reproductive issue.
Try not do have sex? I couldn't do it.
Only solution : Get a chick and really work on it .
Our grandparents did it. I would rather teach morality and individual responsibility to my family and work really hard on that , than create another law.
That is all I should do and all I should be required to do.
You see how hard it is to save people from being poison etc, it will be worse trying to "enforce" them from killing their baby.
KW, have you ever lived off of government assistance in the United States? Me and others who I have known have had to at one point. The government makes it very easy to live if you are poor. If you are poor you get food stamps. Your food is payed for. If you are really broke you get general assistance, which is a cash allowance in addition to food stamps. If you are really poor, you can get section 8 housing, sometimes you don't even have to pay the 1/3 rental payment monthly either.
My brothers ex girlfriend was in our county system and a social worker offered her a FREE APARTMENT. All she had to do was live there and she would not have to pay for anything.
You say that the government help is often insufficient,but from what I've seen I think it often gives so much to people that they have no incentive to get more for themselves.
I know that the economy has stretched safety nets, but if you lived anywhere close to my town and general area, you might believe that it is better to be poor than middle class. That is because there are so many services available to poor people.
This leads me to an important point that I brought up above, since planned parenthoods are usually in poor neighborhoods, why hasn't the pregnancy rates gone down in those places? And trust, the planned parenthood folks give lectures and free condoms out in public places etc. Abortions have gone up but pregnancy rates have stayed the same don't you see a problem with that?
KW, as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg the embryo is a person. What else could it be? I hate all that potential person bullshit because it devalues HUMAN LIFE.
Like I said, it makes little sense that a woman could have a baby, murder it minutes outside the womb and get prosecuted for criminal acts. Yet it is okay for a woman to murder her baby up until the third trimester? Hell muthafuckin naw. We routinely cover our eyes and bury our heads in the sand when bad things happen, but this is institutionalized murder very much like what happens in prisons nowadays.
Regarding HW's comments about laws, well laws can be implemented via the legislature, by decree and or in practice. I read an article that said most medical schools don't teach abortion as a procedure anymore. This is due to liability issues etc. In time, if abortion is no longer taught in medical schools our discussions might be moot; this is what I am hoping for...
No I'm fortunate to have never lived off of social benefits of any country, but I do know what some European systems provide and in South Africa - free housing and a weekly or monthly allowance and some other perks so the US isn't much different.
"Abortions have gone up but pregnancy rates have stayed the same don't you see a problem with that?"
Yep I do - I think everyone's on the same page on that one. But making abortion illegal only means people will find other alternatives. You can get tips online on how to abort - which is very dangerous and you can walk into a health centre and ask for the abortion pill. Teaching the procedure as an elective in medical school may also signify, apart from what you said, that the surgical procedure is becoming outdated and there are other methods.
If a foetus becomes a human being at the point of conception then is using a condom a pre-conception abortion? And the morning after pill is in your eyes a form of abortion too? So should those things be deemed illegal too?
Morning after pill is murder if it is the one they use to cause an abortion. The morning after pill that is used to prevent sperm from binding to eggs is not murder. Using a condom isn't murder per se, although when they study the ill effects on health due to condom use I might be wrong in time...And like I said, illegality is a fuzzy concept. What my hope for is that elective abortion becomes an obselete concept. Why? Shit! We have the technology to help people prevent pregnancies in the first place!
Why is it that with all the Just say NO campaigns and all the safe sex jimmy hat wearers of last generation almost seem irrelevant now? Even in porn they don't use condoms for the most part. For a while in the early and mid nineties there was quite an assortment of porn where people were practicing condom usage and other 'safe sex' methods. Now, you turn on a porno and its gonzo craziness with the most risky UNPROTECTED sex acts imaginable!
Frankly, porn is just as much a reflexion on the minds of those in society as other media and the trends in porn have been straight up suicidal for years. And our young people are increasingly sexualized and look at what is going on in porn to 'figure things out' and if they see a bunch of folks fucking around with no condoms barebacking it, what message is that sending them?
Ultimately a profound shift in consciousness from standpoint of personal responsibility needs to be taught to our children. Otherwise, we will have another generation of callous people who don't think twice about fucking unprotected and aborting...
of all the arguments against abortion, the argument that they are out to exterminate us is the weakest.
certainly the anti-choice parties are out to pimp you too, so let's call it a draw. I don't see those folks who love life so damn much fighting to end capital punishment or outlaw war, so call their arguments bullshit. either you're all for life or not. too many folks are against the right to choose because they want to punish women for poor choices.
the question is should there be a choice? the majority of americans have consistently said yes. men, women, red states, blue states, all races.
"I don't see those folks who love life so damn much fighting to end capital punishment or outlaw war, so call their arguments bullshit. either you're all for life or not"
I said that I was antiwar because innocents are killed, and although I used to be for capital punishment don't believe in that either. I do believe in preserving the lives of INNOCENT human beings and you cannot do that in a society that allows children to be killed from within the womb. But I am not the only person who feels this way; many people feel that government sponsored KILLING in ANY CAPACITY is simply state sponsored murder.
And a lot of people certainly aren't black white on the abortion issue, but many people seem to agree that late term/partial birth abortion is tantamount to infanticide.
@Dude
Yeah I guess that you are right. I am just paranoid. Nobody wants to exterminate us .
Billionaires don't have worldwide political influence to set policies for us.
Wait a minute, -May 2009
Billionaire club met in secrecy in bid to curb overpopulation.
America’s richest people meet to discuss ways of tackling a ‘disastrous’ environmental, social and industrial threat.
SOME of America’s leading billionaires have met secretly to consider how their wealth could be used to slow the growth of the world’s population and speed up improvements in health and education.
The philanthropists who attended a summit convened on the initiative of Bill Gates, the Microsoft co-founder, discussed joining forces to overcome political and religious obstacles to change.
Described as the Good Club by one insider it included David Rockefeller Jr, the patriarch of America’s wealthiest dynasty, Warren Buffett and George Soros, the financiers, Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York, and the media moguls Ted Turner and Oprah Winfrey.
Their aides were told they were at “security briefings”.- however this is different – maybe because they don’t want to be seen as a global cabal,” he said.
Taking their cue from Gates they agreed that overpopulation was a priority.
"This could result in a challenge to some Third World politicians who believe contraception/abortions and female education weaken traditional values."
consensus emerged that they would back a strategy in which population growth would be tackled as a potentially disastrous environmental, social and industrial threat.
“They need to be independent of government agencies, which are unable to head off the disaster we all see looming.”
Why all the secrecy?
My speculation was that the “secret billionaire club” meeting was primarily focused around population control, a cause célèbre embraced by David Rockefeller, Ted Turner and Bill Gates, has been confirmed by a London Times report.
It was more than a sophistic exercise in ass kissing and creeping adulation for people like Rockefeller and Turner, who were portrayed as philanthropic saviors of the planet.
Dude, Turner has publicly advocated shocking population reduction programs that would cull the human population by a staggering 95%. He has also called for a Communist-style one child policy to be mandated by governments in the west.
In China, the one child policy is enforced by means of taxes on each subsequent child, allied to an intimidation program which includes secret police and “family planning” authorities kidnapping pregnant women from their homes and performing forced abortions.
In the third world, Turner has contributed literally billions to population reduction, namely through United Nations programs, leading the way for the likes of Bill & Melinda Gates and Warren Buffet(Gates’ father has long been a leading board member of Planned Parenthood and a top eugenicist).
Dude, slowing the growth of the world’s population while also improving its health are two irreconcilable concepts to the elite. Stabilizing world population is a natural byproduct of higher living standards, as has been proven by the stabilization of the white population in the west. Elitists like David Rockefeller have no interest in “slowing the growth of world population” by natural methods, their agenda is firmly rooted in the pseudo-science of eugenics, which is all about “culling” the surplus population via draconian methods.
David Rockefeller’s legacy is not derived from a well-meaning “philanthropic” urge to improve health in third world countries, it is born out of a Malthusian drive to eliminate the poor and those deemed racially inferior, using the justification of social Darwinism.
Why is that weak? It has only been happening for the last 100 years.
as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg the embryo is a person.
easily one of the stupidest and most ignorant statements I've ever had the misfortune to read online...,
If a foetus becomes a human being at the point of conception
This is the exact same idiocy - which in large part - gave rise to the Inquisition. It's a feudal anachronism in which women's reproductive perogatives are violently usurped by men, period.
No one here - or anywhere else for that matter - has ever been able to name the religious tradition from which this absurd notion emanates?
It's wholly contrived hogwash and propaganda for weak minds that have already succumbed to authoritarian control.
Life begins at conception. Personhood begins after birth. It's a simple matter to recognize that anything killed in-utero is actually, physically, scientifically and rationally killed. But that cannot be murder because a foetus is not a legal person. It is quite obvious that there are many who would like to expand the protections of the state and to legally amend all of the previous jurisprudence into the time period before birth. This is an unreasonable expansion of state power and should be fought.
Catholic dogma on abortion dates from the 1930 encyclical Casti Connubii of Pope Pius XI in which it was asserted that contraception and sterilization were sins against nature and abortion was a sin against life. To understand and arrive at an informed judgment on Catholic moral dogma it is necessary to be conversant with a little history.
That same history will show you in no uncertain terms that the anti-abortion crowd is a recent political construct organized by specific partisan point-sources for definite political aims. Speaking of which, the voice of moderation on this issue comes from Frank Schaeffer, son and co-author of the anti-abortion movement. Why I'm Pro-Life and Pro-Obama.
Craig, you are always sending out the insults but I've come to expect that misanthropic behavior from you. So you say life begins at conception but personhood starts outside the womb. It seems like a distinction in splitting hairs.
Just because a fetus may not be legally described as a person doesn't mean that a belief to the contrary makes a person spew idiocy or stupidity. Legality is a separate issue from rightness or wrongness. I think slavery has taught us that and in the future, abortion will be seen as the barbaric act that it really is, regardless if you believe it is an idiotic viewpoint or not.
And I think your problem is that you attribute deep personal convictions that some have to external sources or rhetoric. But what you fail to see is that there has been an anti abortion voice ever since the practice came about millenia ago. There have always been voices against human rights abuses as long as humans have organized themselves into communities. To place the anti abortion sentiment on the heads of Catholic dogma does the very notion of anti abortion a disservice. If you dig deeper you'd find we had an antiabortion movement within the first wave feminist movement back in the day. There exist feminist groups that are ardently antiabortion and these self same people are against human rights abuses of all types ...See this organization. Susan B. Anthony was hardly an idiot that spewed stupidity.
@Cnu Feedback about Frank
Frank statement:
Let me start by agreeing wholeheatedly with Frank on this statement: “The real solution to abortion is to change the heart of America, not the law.”
However as for Frank on Obama:
I do have a problem with the idea that Frank said Obama has moral authority on the issue of abortion. Obama voted against the Infants Born Alive Act stating the following:
Number one, whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the Equal Protection Clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we’re really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a — a child, a 9-month old — child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it — it would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute.
So Obama would rather allow a doctor to kill a child who has left the womb breathing and fully alive in order to protect late-term abortions (which should be outlawed simply for their cruelty) than to protect that human life?
Frank can't have his cake and eat it too.
If Frank can watch this video and still be an Obama supporter, then he is not pro-life. Pure and simple
http://www.massmediamail.com/durarealidad/
HW Obama did not vote for the Born Alive Infant act, as you noted. This was one of the main reasons that I saw him as a fraud. He is part of the baby murdering cult. He has supported the cult time and time again. If he refused to vote on that issue, I'da had more respect for him but instead he thinks its okay to kill babies whether they are in the womb or not. His position is indefensible.
I abandoned all support of John McCain because he was a warmongering bastard and I don't believe in that crap. The truth is that most of these politicians don't care about what we believe...
Where Thordaddy at (Asgardian question mark)
Yeah, fornication gots to gaux. Malcolm said until black folks stop having premarital sex, drinking, doing drugs we are going to remain in our position.
They can make all the laws they want, did that mean anything to niggas up to the 70's. Negroes reading used to be a felony. Slaves kept revolting. Not because they didnt have the opportunity to read (that's a way to validate the English language and European culture), because they didnt believe in being underneath this system. It takes a belief that this system is not your system. This culture is not your culture. That's what the Nation and the Panther's were disrupting. The success in those movements was the same as Sojourner Truth taking on her own name. They can make all the laws they want. You not included. They can push all the crazy meat, dope whatever they want. You don't let yourself be included.
That's why Huey was a propaganda genius because he made it cool to be politically sound. I know an ex-BLA member that was saying that at age 13 Negroes were debating citing Fanon. That is why rap is important to this system. It does work efficiently. If it could make a generation political, then it should also work in the reverse. Therefore it does. It's within us not the laws.
Most civil rights activists have criminal histories. However that criminal legacy has been co-opted and repackaged as dope slanging, fornication, etc, etc.
If you black you born in jail- Malcolm.
That is the mentality Negroes historically had. More and more as we have felt that we have become apart of the political process, then we assimilate. Then we no longer take it to the streets. Then our momas are like, "what you stirring up trouble for?"
Yes cholesterol drugs are pushed to high school now. We don't have any more control or influence over our own communities, youth etc. That's were it's at first. Our communities believing in our "radicals" when actually they are moderates in the scheme of things. Abandoning fornication is radical, not for my grandmother. Abandoning ham and eggs is radical, not in pre-Edward Bernays society. Eat what you want, but when the Muslim slaves refused to eat the slave masters meat scraps (hunted their OWN meat:not made up;SLAVES) and alcohol...the act is "radical" to the plantation machinery, not to those that have refused their slavery. Those same Negroes end up killing master in his sleep, or running to the Indians.
Thanks Rig. I meant to say did not. It would have made more sense to the second para.
Chairman Mao/ Robert Williams relationship is different from Kennedy/MLK relationship. That is a testament to the world we were in the process of carving. The world began to acknowledge black people in America as being separate and independent. Consulting us. Williams met with Mao before any US president. Not holding Mao as my savior but the idea that we had our independent voice. Huey got on tv claiming solidarity with the Vietnamese people against the coward American troops. His words.
911 hit, and Negroes listen to media telling you that we need to be united.
Ah, you want to save INNOCENT life. So not all life is sacred, just the people you think are worth living.
Craig, you are always sending out the insults but I've come to expect that misanthropic behavior from you.
I didn't say that you're the stupidest and most ignorant person I've encountered online Mahndisa.
Had I done so, you could then pretend to be offended.
But these "deep personal convictions" of yours that you can't back up with anything more than "because I believe it and I say so" compel you to string together nonsense that would make a seven year old cringe. (much as Farst's "deep personal convictions" about "radical autonomy" and much else contrived in the propaganda mills of the 1970's dominionist evangelical movement - which has captivated the imaginations of authoritarians ever since)
A slime mold is "life" but not a person.
Only a few days ago you were slinging anti-vegetarian arguments against eating algae because it's "alive".
A "person" is something wholly different than just "life".
That's not splitting hairs now, and it never has been.
Torah, talmud, koran, and jurisprudence are unanimous in their consensus on this point.
If it were otherwise, how could we have heated political controversy over the "personhood" of corporations?
This culture is not your culture. That's what the Nation and the Panther's were disrupting. The success in those movements was the same as Sojourner Truth taking on her own name. They can make all the laws they want. You not included. They can push all the crazy meat, dope whatever they want. You don't let yourself be included.
The Black brand was a helluva run at an intentional culture.
Too bad it didn't focus on moral and psychological competency.
Too bad it didn't focus on economic development.
For half a hot minute, it looked like it had a chance. But in the end, it wasn't prepared for long-term, no-holds barred hostilities with the dopamine hegemony, a luta continua...,
Craig,I know being aneurotypical that may be difficult for you to empathize with other human beings but empathy can be a good thing for personal growth.
As to setting up an argument about eating algae because it is alive, that was no argument I set up at all. The discussion was about the self righteousness of vegans saying they don't eat living things, and if they get B12 from algae, they are contradicting themselves because obviously algae is alive.
What I am against is the killing of innocent human beings. You say a seven year old would cringe, but that isn't true and I think you know that. You simply disagree with me and I wish you'd leave it at that. Instead though, you come here saying that what I say is stupid and idiotic because I don't believe what you believe. In the end this is a values discussion. I could truly care less if you cite a million sources to justify your beliefs that a fetus is a 'glob of cells'; it would do nothing to change my mind that a fetus is a living being that does not deserve to be murdered.
You set up a straw man when you split hairs between living and personhood. But that legal definition of personhood still is fuzzy. And interestingly enough you say that I can never back up what I say but of course I do,when it is called for. I even linked you to an organization of PRO LIFE FEMNINISTS,which you never address because it runs counter to your belief that anti abortion sentiments were created the past century by Catholic dogma.
You mention holy books but in fact, the Hadiths bar the practice of abortion after the baby has reached about four months if I recall correctly. So even in the interpretations of the Koran, this practice is not looked upon favorable, particularly after a certain period of time.
As to other religions, you are wrong once more, but go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that a human isn't a person until they are seven. Remember that stupid statement? That is idiocy if I've ever seen it!
I agree Sea-In-You, that's a given but that statement left to explain itself can suggest if white people were to just disappear tomorrow that black people would cease to exist. (the burning of Black Wall Street what the GAP Band covered in the song, You Dropped the Bomb on Me). There are many movements, if left undisturbed, would thrive i.e. economic development, moral and psychological competency. It's like anything else, it takes numbers to support an idea or it's just an idea on the shelf collecting cobwebs.
The Nation focused on that. I have my theory why it has lost momentum since the 70's. WThey were straight through the 40's and 70's. A strong entity. Black Power movement were mostly youth without support of the older generation. Just like rap. Youth without leadership. The older generation abandoned these children of the Civil Rights movement and allowed the media to convince them that rap was degrading and stepping backwards.
"A preacher told me that he had to come down to my level cause I'm rhyming and hip-hop is blinding"
-Steady B
Right there a divide in the community between two generations so that a movement becomes pure "reactionary." Revolution actually is about tearing down or destroying. Reform is about changing. The black power movement was left in the hands of the youth even though it was influenced by Malcolm & Robert F. Williams. So it was about just destroying. Black Wall Street was not about tearing down, it was about sustaining given circumstances.
So I hear you, but there does exist possibilities but our rightful criminal legacy has been co-opted.
Instead though, you come here saying that what I say is stupid and idiotic because I don't believe what you believe.
You stated that a zygote is a person.
That's a priori ridiculous, period.
Had nothing whatsoever to do with what anybody believes.
Without reference to anything else, on its own merits - it's plainly and simply a nonsensical statement.
To then compile a system of belief around a nonsensical statement...,
I noticed you didn't mention the Hindi or Buddhist views on abortion and you hadn't done enough research to quote from the Koran either. If so, you wouldn't have included the Koran in your citation of spiritual books that condone abortion. As to jurisprudence determining personhood, I don't need lawmakers to tell me that a baby inside of the womb is still a person.
If you think what I am citing is stupid and idiotic, tell that to the MILLIONS of followers of Vishnu on the planet:
Vishnadharma Sutra ("Sacred-Law-Book of Vishnu) which reads:
"Killing a Kshatriya [knight] or a Vaishya [Merchant] engaged in sacrifice, a menstrating woman, a pregnant women...[and]..the embryo (even) of a stranger is tantamount to killing a Brahmin [Priest]." (Hindu Ethics, p.45)
S. Chandrasekhar (who is pro-choice) writes that not only do the most ancient Hindu scriptures condemn abortion, but so do the books of laws which were formulated from those scriptures:
"Hindu scriptures apart, the Hindu lawgivers of a later age treated abortion as a crime and ranked it among other crimes such as murder, incest, adultery with the wife of a guru, etc." (Abortion in a Crowded World, p.42)
No you believe what I said is stupid and idiotic. Just like I believe your statement about a person becoming a person at seven years old is stupid and idiotic. The truth is we will never agree on this issue and your insults and appeal to academic authority aside will not move me nor many others who know in their hearts that zygote, fetal, baby, child murder is wrong.
If you listen to the wise Nanakwame, he got on you the other day about your smug arrogance where you hold up the rantings of Hypertiger as gospel, but demean and insult Shay's intelligence. That isn't the way to go buddy. You are here belittling people's very thoughts on ethics and morality telling them that they are stupid and idiotic whether tacitly or not and attributing belief systems to them that may or may not be true.
Your problem is that you think you know so much and that you are absolutely correct, and that anyone who dare disagree is an idiot. That is your failing.
I would love to see you interact with someone from a completely different cultural background on these issues and see how that turns out. You are clearly so narrow in your understanding of history and so western centered that you cannot even admit that the antiabortion voice is an ancient as civilization!
it would do nothing to change my mind that a fetus is a living being that does not deserve to be murdered.
knowing that it's only possible to murder "persons" - and knowing the ridiculous extremity of the idiotic statement you made upthread - it's not surprising to see you begin inching away from that preposterous proposition in favor of something you believe you can rationally defend using standard english terminology.
I have no intention of debating your deeply held personal belief - everything I have to say about its origins, basis, and credibility has already been said.
If you spend any more cycles trying to validate your personal beliefs to others, that's because you feel the need to do so, period.
The end of the Black Power movement went into support of the Nation of Islam. Their membership began to swell because black youth didnt have they any other options. The Nation provided a organized structure. They had elders from the start that directed youth.
It's no wonder rap music had all of these Islamic undertones at the beginning stages. The BLA were the part of the Black Panthers that reacted to cointelpro. Robbing banks etc. There was all of that youthful energy left unchecked. Wanting to do something. Feeling powerless thus reacting.
They were straight through the 40's and 70's. A strong entity.
James Crow was uniform in his oppression (compression) of negros wrt generations, finances, scholarship, etc.., thus the apparent unity from actual disunity as against a uniformly inimical force.
I have my theory why it has lost momentum since the 70's.
Me too...,
Once the legal and social strictures became more permeable, then the objectively heterogenous composition of compound noir separated like any other compound does under electrophoresis - in this case - the differential charge of niggaHz applied along our "collective". I grew up in a segregated Black neighborhood comprised of doctors, lawyers, workers, shopkeepers, teachers, hoodlums, etc..., however, after passage of the Fair Housing Act, most folk who had two cents to rub together got up and got out of that neighborhood quick, fast, and in a hurry - over yonder to where the grass was supposedly greener, the ice colder, etc...,
Once that movement outward took place, most of the apparently, formerly unitary institutions essentially imploded as bastions of cultural maintenance and production - leaving us in the predicament we find ourselves in today, nostalgic heirs to a formerly great brand which lacked the substance and internecine cohesion to stick together and flourish together in any substantial way. The assimilable were assimilated and the others left to rot.
"I have no intention of debating your deeply held personal belief - everything I have to say about its origins, basis, and credibility has already been said."
Of course you do, otherwise you wouldn't have commented at all. We've been through this before but you always try to get the last word in. I have no desire to defend myself against you; simply to make you understand that you have no idea whatsoever what motivates me or where I get my thoughts from. Your worldview is so myopic that you think you can figure out a person by making some allusions to history. Oh joy. Nana is right; you ought to flirt with humility for a change because in this instance you are dead wrong with just about everything you think you know about my beliefs or their origins.
The end of the Black Power movement went into support of the Nation of Islam. Their membership began to swell because black youth didnt have they any other options. The Nation provided a organized structure. They had elders from the start that directed youth.
hmmm...., from my midwestern street's eye view, the end of the Black Power movement coincided in many regards with the advent of the blaxploitation movement in American cinema.
I was a teenager during the 70's, reading Muhammad Speaks, eating whitefish and beanpie, going to the drive-in to watch Superfly.
Three things about the NOI.
1. Utterly male-dominated (crippled)
2. Stuck in early 70's methods and technology.
3. Mythology repellent to intelligence.
The NOI squandered whatever possibilities it once held with the assassination of Malcolm X. That Khalid Muhammad "give me a Black goddess sister, I cain't resist her" became the sampled voice of a new generation - is some whole other emergent isht.
Preach Minister! Yes Sir!
I was speaking in regards to the Nation's rise in membership from the remnants of the Black Power movement, not that the Nation swallowed up that era.
I have heard from many cats that Super Fly's perm destroyed the afro. I wonder how Curtis Mayfield felt in terms of his obviously socially responsible lyrics. The overnight flip-flop (BlackPower to Dope Dealer fighting whitey) is a testament to the power of imagery. I believe they studied the Panthers and the idea of them being "armed propaganda units."
The majority will always be for eye candy. That's what worked for the Panthers in the first place. That's why they dont place Negroes on the teli like they use to. Blacks flapping their nigger lips talking about good white folk.
1. Utterly male-dominated (crippled)
[Actually an opportunity. Compare that paradigm to the reality of its alternative. And we end up with the Plantation Negro faggots, raised by their mommas and singing on American Idol]
2. Stuck in early 70's methods and technology.
[Short sighted nonsense. "How To Eat To Live" by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad would have done more to empower black people than Brown v. Board, Voters Right Act & Affirmative Action combined.]
3. Mythology repellent to intelligence.
[Compared to the mythology of the Plantation ... NOI's mythology is starting to look like prophesy. One man's 'Big Head Scientist' is another man's Eugenecist]
Mahndisa
"The discussion was about the self righteousness of vegans saying they don't eat living things, and if they get B12 from algae, they are contradicting themselves because obviously algae is alive."
Correction, that wasn't about living things - vegans eat living plants not living animals. Big difference. In any case, that "self righteous vegan" was a transitioning vegan, DV. There weren't too many "self righteous vegans" on that particular discussion so "they" being pro-algae must be reduced to the singular - I don't eat it for reasons of taste.
DV, Mahndisa and Hot Wax,
Have you adopted or fostered a child? Apart from waxing digital (DV & HW) about Big Guvm'nt's alleged genocidal plan what do y'all do out there in the community or in your families towards preventing unintended pregnancy or preventing abortion?
Mahndisa
You once said,
"If women who had unviable fetuses ate them, KW I wouldn't talk mess about them at all; it would be consistent. The women would be taking full responsibility for everything!
The problem with elective abortion is that the fetuses are murdered and they are simply discarded like trash- whether they are viable or not."
So your opposition to abortion is on the basis of diet; it's wrong to kill a foetus, but not wrong to eat one. Abortion is 'murder' of 'innocent human beings' but eating one's own foetus is not...Yea, okkkaaay.
As to the self righteous vegan stuff, yes I was referring to DV. He was making sweeping indictments of all meat eaters but then changed up and said that it was only the factory farmed meat. As to the nature of a vegan versus meat eating thing, I've met vegans that do feel guilty eating living plants which is why they eat chaff shaken from grains and fruits. I never knew the proper term was fruitarian until you mentioned this a few days ago. These are pretty hardcore people who don't think that eating living anything is cool.
Pardon me for equating DV with that type of rhetoric. It is clear that there are many shades of gray with how people within the vegetarian and vegan umbrellas feel about eating living organisms. In that regard, I thought it was inconsistent to get B12 from a living organism if this is the chief reason one goes vegetarian or vegan.
KW, I was joking on that thread if you couldn't tell. But in all honesty, if there was some culture out there, where if a woman had a miscarriage and they ate the baby's remains I would find that strange but fitting in some sense. It certainly would not be the same as having an elective abortion! In all honesty, natures way of getting rid of unviable fetuses usually is via spontaneous abortions/miscarriages and how women deal with that issue is individual and sensitive and there should be some cultural rites associated with closure.
"DV, Mahndisa and Hot Wax,
Have you adopted or fostered a child? Apart from waxing digital (DV & HW) about Big Guvm'nt's alleged genocidal plan what do y'all do out there in the community or in your families towards preventing unintended pregnancy or preventing abortion?"
I mentioned above that I told my relative that me and my husband would raise her kid if she didn't want it.
This invitation has been extended to loved ones and the way that I help out is to do right by my family and in my neighborhood. Since my husband and I bought our home, we've had a couple of people who were down and out live with us until they got back on their feet. I put my money where my mouth is because after all is said and done, I believe in family and friendship and that loved ones support one another.
Regarding what I do to prevent teen pregnancy in my community, I try to be a good upstanding role model to the students I tutor and encourage them to realize their potential and not get distracted by partying too much or whatever else... Since I am a woman who is married with a toddler, I am an example of what stability looks like and this is an encouragement for them to keep it together and not screw up.
I had one student who was a habitual truant,but after a while he was feeling guilty and made certain to make every single one of our tutoring sessions OR he'd call if he couldn't make it. We underestimate the power of MODELING GOOD BEHAVIOR and the consequences of good lifestyle choices to our youth. I've been thinking of volunteering at a pregnancy center but have to come up with a reasonable schedule to fit it in.
DV, Mahndisa and Hot Wax,
Have you adopted or fostered a child? Apart from waxing digital (DV & HW) about Big Guvm'nt's alleged genocidal plan what do y'all do out there in the community or in your families towards preventing unintended pregnancy or preventing abortion?" KW
I teach Plantation Negros To
1) Get A Chick
2) Not Eat Pork
3) That 13% of the population doesn't get 40% of the abortions because they CHOOSE to ... they get them because they have been TRAINED to
As to the self righteous vegan stuff, yes I was referring to DV. He was making sweeping indictments of all meat eaters but then changed up and said that it was only the factory farmed meat." Mahndisa
Wrong / Defensive again.
Bring me an uncloned chicken free of pesticides, hormones, steroids and antibiotics ... and I would ... I would ...
never mind.
Actually I wouldn't.
You right.
"HW Obama did not vote for the Born Alive Infant act, as you noted. This was one of the main reasons that I saw him as a fraud. He is part of the baby murdering cult. He has supported the cult time and time again. If he refused to vote on that issue, I'da had more respect for him but instead he thinks its okay to kill babies whether they are in the womb or not. His position is indefensible.
I abandoned all support of John McCain because he was a warmongering bastard and I don't believe in that crap. The truth is that most of these politicians don't care about what we believe..." Mahndisa
Courageous principled position.
Big Ups Mahndisa.
I love how this thread was about Harold Ford, and that concept was abandoned days ago. Dude is a non event.
LOL. True Dude. True.
Harold Ford aint even about 'Harold Ford'.
Dude is plastic. I told him he needed Hip Hop to remain relevant.
He didn't understand that either.
But I tell you ... nothing can bring the energy of a blog down faster than a thread on abortion.
But nothing is taboo here, so the price you gotta pay sometimes.
Black women are 13% of the population of women in this country ... but have 40% of the abortions ...
How anyone digests that fact and continues to support the abortion apparatus baffles me.
The whole ... "HOW MANY BLACK KIDS HAVE YOU ADOPTED ARGUMENT" is silly. (Kay Dub)
I haven't adopted any black kids.
Should I be OK with murdering 8 year old's too?
If an over-extended black mother decides to smother her 4 year old daughter ... should I look the other way unless I am prepared to adopt that 4 year old girl?
Then why should I look the other way if a child is about to be ripped apart 6 weeks before it is born?
Not being antagonistic. This is a very uncomfortable topic. I truly wish to better understand the minds of abortion enthusiasts.
So, we've decided that outlawing fornication, the root cause of most abortions, isn't as good an idea as outlawing abortion?
I suppose that's the easier choice.
"we've decided that outlawing fornication, the root cause of most abortions," Big Man
That's a big l e a p in logic Big Man.
I'd say fornication is the root cause of conception.
The root cause of abortion is a vacuum cleaner and forceps.
I think Big Man is saying that most unwanted babies are through fornication as oppose to the act marriage that suggests the intent of family, the reason why the concept of marriage in "gaydom" is baffling. Ones objective in booty poking is not to have children. Also sexual relations outside of marriage is usually dedicated to immediate benefits as oppose to the concept of man, woman and child.
Craig,
What is the dividing line between a foetus and a legally recognized person?
"unwanted babies" is a meme.
That's like an apple tree not wanting an apple.
There is trepidation and worry and risk and failure associated with reproduction.
These muufuggahs ready to leap in with tools to pierce the skulls of these unborn children the moment the mother is in doubt are playing a numbers game.
They also control the education / indoctrination system.
Which is why A students who really know better, give Pavlovian lip service and play apologists for what amounts to nothing more than a poorly disguised Eugenics strategy.
http://blackgenocide.org/
Mayne,
Abortion is never easy for everyone that chooses to do so; neither is abortion just about women – poverty (despite what the Guv’m’nt provides) and not having a committed partner have a lot to do with it. Your reaction to the murder of an 8 year is not the issue; if you’re outraged by the number of Black women choosing not to give s/he a chance at being a person and having a life, then fostering a child is you giving a child the best chance at life Denmark Vesey style...one free of vaccines and GMO food.
DV
I know you don't want to outlaw abortion. We've already established that. Your mission is to push the idea that abortion is plot against black folks.
I'm fine with that, we have no problems. Hell, I think you're right about the motives of the folks who created Planned Parenthood, although I don't think that means the current activities of Planned Parenthood only operate to the detriment of black folks.
I'm talking to the folks who want to outlaw abortion.
All your talk about how changing diet would solve black health problems far more than any public option, but you can't see that ending fornication would solve the problem of abortions way faster than any new law?
Wait, scratch that. You're pushing the "1 million brothas and sistas..." meme, so you must understand that stable families lead to fewer abortions. A stable family is a married family.
So, what's the deal here? Why not address the fact that more laws are not going to solve this problem, they'll just create a new problem.
The man who doesn't support affirmative actions, doesn't support gun control and truly, doesn't support government interference in private lives is pushing the memes of folks who want to create laws to prevent women from having abortions.
Well that doesn't compute.
If the pro-life folks really want to reduce abortions, all they need to do is reduce fornication. Then they can reduce abortions, and get folks in-line with God, since most of them already identify as Christians.
Instead, they are focusing on laws outlawing abortion. My contention is they are taking the easy road because they'd rather not pass laws that would cause them to have to make any sacrfices.
Just like the folks working to outlaw gay marriage, but haven't even thought about outlawing divorce.
If you're going to introduce God into the discussion when making laws, then let's bring Him all the way into the discussion, let's not only include Him when it's easy.
"if you’re outraged by the number of Black women choosing not to give s/he a chance at being a person and " KW
No.
Didn't say that.
I say call "abortion" what it is:
EuGENICS.
GENOcide.
Not choice.
Not sad little stories about girls with no options.
If abortion is the best option for society we wouldn't have to call it something else.
13% .... 40%
Somebody explain that to me.
Ya'll validating Byrdeye.
"I know you don't want to outlaw abortion. We've already established that. Your mission is to push the idea that abortion is plot against black folks." Big Man
umm ... no.
My mission is to let the truth speak for itself.
Not obscure it.
Whether that truth is a cloned Frankenstein pig or a "non-person" with a skull and eye lashes.
13% ... 40%
"Didn't say that."
Then you can reword it murder if y'wish; it doesn't change my point.
"13....40%
Somebody explain that to me"
8% never had sex education and never used contraception.
54% have had sex ed, but may or may not have used contraception on this specific occasion.
***75% are not in stable relationships.***
Poor women are *4 times* more likely to abort.
Mahndisa,
Thank you for that, it’s gr8 that you’re doing what you can to help people and being an example in your community in a time when there’s such a secular-driven opposition to marriage.
I’ve looked into adoption and plan to do so when I have kids. I sometimes work with a fostering agency – but more on the administrative side of things and there are so many Black children in need, but the culture of not adopting among Black people middle class – even childless couples runs deep.
It’s very important for a child to be placed with a family they can identify with, but too many times White folks are the ones adopting Black kids and volunteering in homes. I know for many Black folk we don’t only support our immediate families, but the extended as well and some work long shift hours, but I still feel more can be done.
If, for whatever reason, abortion procedures were no longer done and no abortion pill; it wouldn’t stop unintended pregnancies. As a consequence, the figures of children in foster homes would shoot up – how many Black pro-lifers would step up? I don’t know but I’m not optimistic the figures would be much more than they are now.
Please note I’m not saying people should abort because adoption figures are not high, but pro-lifers should back up what they say.
"I'm talking to the folks who want to outlaw abortion." Big Man
Why?
Why not talk about the people who use the 'law' so that 13% of the population has 40% of the abortions?
"All your talk about how changing diet would solve black health problems far more than any public option, but you can't see that ending fornication would solve the problem of abortions way faster than any new law?" Big Man
Ending "fornication" would end life.
Ending "fornication" makes as much sense as "ending" defecation.
"Wait, scratch that. You're pushing the "1 million brothas and sistas..." meme, so you must understand that stable families lead to fewer abortions. A stable family is a married family.
So, what's the deal here? Why not address the fact that more laws are not going to solve this problem, they'll just create a new problem." Big Man
huh?
Abortion was not "out"lawed Big Man.
Abortion was "in"lawed.
Peep the hockey stick curve increase in the numbers of abortions after Maragaret Sanger, with her Rockefeller financing slickly intertwined "Choice" with the Women's Movement & Negro Civil Rights ... to get a Supreme Court Endorsement of abortion.
It's been a 40 year conveyor belt of a Holocaust since.
Might as well have been gas chambers.
So ... go 'head with your efforts to be neutral for the sake of being neutral.
Later for the switcheroo topic of "people who want to make "it" illegal."
It is what it is.
KW
Personally, I don't really ride with the whole "Well would you adopt?" argument.
I think it's too hypothetical.
The argument of "Would you be willing to outlaw sex outside of marriage?" has more power in my opinion.
That's completely biblical. It gets to the root of the problem.
So, why aren't these pro-life folks pushing that argument?
But, I think you're right that black folks need to consider being foster parents or adoptive parents. When my little boys get older, I'm probably going to sign up for it.
I mentored these foster kids when I was living out in Minnesota, and man their stories were so sad. Their lives were so sad. All I used to do was take them to hoop or to the movies or whatever, but they appreciated it so much. This older black lady was their foster mother, and she was a sweet lady, but she was trying to take care of three little boys with no man in sight.
People really don't realize how serious the problem is with foster homes and group homes and all that stuff.
DV
The truth is that fornication often leads to unintended pregnancies.
The truth is that fornication often leads to unintended pregnancies.
What does that have to do with anything? Most happy, healthy pregnancies and families were "unintended".
"13....40%
Somebody explain that to me"
"8% never had sex education and never used contraception.
54% have had sex ed, but may or may not have used contraception on this specific occasion." KW
Au Contrare Mon Frere
So-called "Sex Education" aint nothing but marketing material for uncommitted sex and inevitable abortions.
It is self-evident that the myth of "teaching" kids to have "safe sex" somehow prevents pregnancy and improves health is a complete fraud.
Look at what the last several generations of "sex ed" has produced.
Spiritually bankrupt over-sexed people who are less and less fertile everyday.
Where's the safety in "safe sex"?
Is giving girls and boys condoms really ... about safety?
I took it as a starter pistol.
"***75% are not in stable relationships.***
Poor women are *4 times* more likely to abort." KW
Kaaaaaay Dub ...
Why do you think "poor women" are 4 times more likely to abort?
In the US ... it is not because they cannot feed them.
It is because abortion is 4 TIMES more likely to be marketed to "poor" (black) women.
Hey KW, I am very happy to hear you are considering fostering or adopting in time. The act of so doing requires a HUGE emotional, mental and spiritual commitment, but I am sure you will do well with it.
Would you adopt a child from Zimbabwe or the USA or does it matter?
"So-called "Sex Education" aint nothing but marketing material for uncommitted sex and inevitable abortions."
...then those Dutch and Germans in mainland Europe must be manufacturing those low abortion rates, huh.
"It is because abortion is 4 TIMES more likely to be marketed to "poor" (black) women."
True...So if poverty were redressed, then what would happen to those abortion stats?
Intellectual Insurgent
Unintended pregnancies within a marriage are far less likely to be aborted.
So, you curtail fornication, you curtail abortion with the added bonus of increasing marriage.
Sounds like a program somebody pushing "Get A Chick" and "Keep A Chick" would get behind.
But nope, we get:
"Ending "fornication" would end life.
Ending "fornication" makes as much sense as "ending" defecation."
Just blatant ridiculousness. As if ending fornication ends sex and procreation. Talk about "Hegelian Head Fake."
Nope, I'm all for sex, just do it within marriage. Make babies with your wife. Lots and lots of babies. Be fruitful and multiply.
DV said he wants to call a spade a spade, but then when you point out that blatant racism of many of the cats trying to outlaw outlaw abortion he's asking "Why y'all worried about the messenger?"
Come on now, let's be real. You got some racist folks pushing a meme. My first reaction when racist folks tell me something to be skeptical, but maybe DV has had better experiences in his four decades on the planet.
This ain't about me being neutral, 'cause I'm not. I think abortion is wrong, and I don't women to get abortions.
I just ain't working to outlaw it and I think the folks who are working to outlaw it are obvious hypocrites.
Now, you want to talk about reducing abortions by building families and reducing poverty, then I think you're talking solutions.
If you just want to shout "It's Black Genocide and Whitey is out to get y'all" then you just shouting.
So, whitey is out to get us, how exactly does outlawing abortion solve that problem?
What is the dividing line between a foetus and a legally recognized person?
One thing at a time Dina.
Let's first distinguish between an irresponsible child and the traditional teaching wrt the age of moral responsibility.
Allegedly "religious" folks were quick to condemn my statements about the importance of the age of seven some months ago. Of course, I was perfectly contented to let them continue along the path of blissful ignorance because the information undergirding my comment is not hidden from anyone.
I assume you know that catholic canon law and the orthodox church in general hold that the age of 7 is the age of moral responsibility?
"True...So if poverty were redressed, then what would happen to those abortion stats?" Kay Dub
Poverty redressed?
Sounds cool.
In the mean time I'll help black women to view the Abortion Apparatus as a genocidal tool.
If we can get them to stop smoking while pregnant, we can get them to stop killing their children while pregnant.
Abortion is a societal statement about the value of human life.
Those who hate humanity thrive off of the ultimate devaluation of life - abortion.
"I assume you know that catholic canon law and the orthodox church in general hold that the age of 7 is the age of moral responsibility?"
So are you saying you are bound to the beliefs pushed by the orthodox and catholic churches? Who really cares what the church says about the age of moral responsibility? If you feel that something is right or wrong in the heart, why do you need church dogma to validate your beliefs?
Funny you addressed the question to II, who is a practicing Muslim. Are your citations relevant to her belief system?
I did not know that Catholic orthodoxy holds 7 as the age of moral resposibility.
Interesting. In Islam, if a couple divorces, the mother automatically gets custody of the children until they are 7. After that, they go to the father.
What is magical about age 7?
Thanks Mahndisa,
We'd prob adopt a Zimbabwean child as that's where we wld be or somewhere in the region.
Thank you for further constructive engagement Dina.
Under all these abrahamic religions there lies a deep psychological understanding and developmental tradition rooted in the cyclical maturation of the psyche - beginning with an irrational essence (7), a rational/moral personality (7-14), adolescence (struggle)(14-21) and then finally maturation into the age of real responsibility and being-duty during which what is acquired in the personality must be sublimated into the essence (metanoia - turning of the mind) and the formation of a permanent unitary mind/will/soul.
This last would equate in the Islamic world to the "cleansing of the nafs" and the formation of something permanent within oneself, as opposed to the "legion" of essential urges and the mechanical and highly repetitive ritual habitual that is personality - cohabiting and conflicting with one another over control of the psyche - which comprises the ordinary and undeveloped psyche.
All of the religious practices are focused on accomplishing the same end, i.e., development of a unitary consciousness at which point a human being has formed something permanent in him/her self.
Until that time, we are all developmental works in progress. Some traditions have submerged all of this into ritual and symbolism, others still have much of it evident in their practices, e.g., the orthodox belief in and efforts toward "glorification".
"DV said he wants to call a spade a spade, but then when you point out that blatant racism of many of the cats trying to outlaw outlaw abortion he's asking "Why y'all worried about the messenger?"" Big Man
Think about it bra.
What's more "racist"?
Hugging Negros on TV and conducting high profile adoptions of little African babies .... while supporting / condoning the killing of millions of unborn black children ...
Or fighting against the abortion apparatus that kills millions of unborn black children ... while preferring your daughter not date a black man?
What's really ... more racist?
Personally killing black babies at 3 times the rate white babies are killed strikes me as the epitome of "racist".
Ok, so since we are discussing abortion, does this mean we are all "abortable", so to speak, until the human being has formed something permanent in ourselves?
In other words, does legal personhood require the complete maturation of the psyche, i.e. completion or at least passage through the three stages you decribe?
"In other words, does legal personhood require the complete maturation of the psyche, i.e. completion or at least passage through the three stages you decribe?" II
Obviously not.
Kill someone's 3 year old less-than-person and see what happens.
MR
Who really cares what the church says about the age of moral responsibility? If you feel that something is right or wrong in the heart, why do you need church dogma to validate your beliefs?
So, where do you get your beliefs? Strictly from your heart?
So right and wrong is the ultimate rationalization based solely on what Mahindsa believes at a given time?
Today murder is wrong, tomorrow your heart feels differently?
Obviously DV.
But I want to understand how the principles that CNu discussed above, which highlight the wisdom of religious praxis, intersect with the discussion of abortion from CNu's perspective.
We all keep going in circles on this subject, but I want to understand his line of reasoning.
And perhaps this explains his views on so many other things, including the incredible disdain for so-called "religious" people. Since most who claim to be "religious" have never exercised the discipline to grow much beyond the first stage, maybe they too are the irrational essence.
I want the unifier that ties CNu's opinions together.
In other words, does legal personhood require the complete maturation of the psyche, i.e. completion or at least passage through the three stages you decribe?
You know what the law stipulates Dina.
and a foetus doesn't qualify under the law as a person, doesn't qualify under traditional religious law, scripture, or belief rooted in deep understanding.
How folks fly-by-night "deep personal beliefs" register these realities has nothing whatsoever to do with any of it.
Since most who claim to be "religious" have never exercised the discipline to grow much beyond the first stage, maybe they too are the irrational essence.
Much worse than that Dina.
I value the irrational essence evident in children and prize it FAR FAR beyond the mechanical nothingness of personality.
Traditional values don't agree with the law, and ersatz "religion" (re-ligare) has wallowed in lazy, shallow ignorance and the sickness of faith for so long as to be a form of absolute madness - rather than anything even remotely approaching religious praxis.
It is what it is.
Since the humans no longer fulfill their being-duty and develop something permanent in themselves, they'll be dealt with as the food they have become.
Everything that lives must eat, including those things that humans only vaguely remember and mythologize.
and.that's.a.fact!!
Reminds me of a scene from the movie Natural Born Killers. Someone is asking the main character, a serial killer, why he killed so many people. He responded, "they were already dead. I only met them half way."
He then expressed remorse for one murder, of an Indian (Native American) guy, because "he was life".
How many "saintly" or glorified folk have you encountered in this life who have indisputably developed something permanent in themselves by which they might actually deserve the honorific "Christian"?
The "nature" of our predicament seems fairly self-evident to me...,
Big Man, you asked a good question. Frankly all societies throughout the world developed code of ethics long before holy books were in existence. It is because what drives us is propagation, as in any species. Killing an innocent person does nothing to advance the goal of propagating human beings, which is why the killing of an INNOCENT human being is universally morally wrong.
I don't need a book to tell me what is right and what is wrong. I have that inside of myself from being a product of thousands of years of humans propagating themselves. With regards to the abortion issue, I get really peeved when the pro life lobby makes it all about being a WASP Christian conservative, because this designation is not inclusive.
There are many religions around the world that view abortion as a crime against humanity; this viewpoint is literally thousands of years old and by narrowing the rhetoric to WASPness, we exclude people who could be our allies in this fight against human rights abuses, like abortion.
When people see it as a universal failing and legally sanctioned murder irrespective of religious ideology, then we may have a chance of getting rid of the practice.
So all of that to say, I did not mean to offend any religious beliefs that you have, because I come from a religious background. More or less to say that an appeal to religious belief does little to further the pro life cause in a diverse environment.
And to prove what I am saying, there are agnostic and atheist pro lifers out there too.
How many "saintly" or glorified folk have you encountered in this life who have indisputably developed something permanent in themselves by which they might actually deserve the honorific "Christian"?
About as many as deserve the honorific "Muslim". :-)
Which is to say maybe one or two. You can't miss them. They are light. They walk on air.
But here is why abortion is inconsistent with these principles.
Parenting is one of the most Godly things one can do. It is undoubtedly one of the few chances that one has to reevaluate their lives and start the praxis toward permanence. At least, that is what it has been for me and my husband.
The self-discipline, understanding, introspection, etc. that is required to be a good parent is unlike the demands of anything else. And it is with that that we become closer to reaching whatever honorific one may wish for. Indeed, I believe that is why parenthood - Intended or unintended - is such an exalted status in true religious orthodoxy.
From the child's perspective, abortion is an unjustifiable interruption of the process of becoming.
CNu is playing unfair :).
He know that under this system of "laws" world wide, that there is only one law that fits this bill. Cannon Law. Law of the Elite.
see Jordan Maxwell.
(only for those of you who want to go down the rabbit hole)
Nothing else counts- All other laws are just an illusion according to them.
"US constitution-just a GD piece of paper"
The 3 weekend religions Fri (Frigg day-Venus/islam) and Sat (Saturn/Judaic-eL- jewish) and Sunday (Sun/Christian) all have to solve the abortion issues using cannon law.
Vatican muggafuggah said so. However while we sit and pontificate, another 3000 beautiful black babies just went by by. Isn't that special? BPAs, poison food, etc. etc., all the things out here that affect your ability to proppagate....Why is it so hard for all to cut to the chase and just truly accept the fact that the designers of these " laws "are really into de- evolution and just don't want your asses around anymore not even touching on the fact that they don't even want new ones. fa real , is it really that hard to see?
MR
"Killing an innocent person does nothing to advance the goal of propagating human beings, which is why the killing of an INNOCENT human being is universally morally wrong...."
And
" I don't need a book to tell me what is right and what is wrong. I have that inside of myself from being a product of thousands of years of humans propagating themselves"
I've seen CNulan argue that abortion was an accepted part of many cultures both as a way to survive during lean times, and as a means of woman bringing shame to men who mistreated them. So apparently every early human culture did not view abortion in the same light regardless of their religious practices.
In fact, the reason why folks tie abortion to religion is because when you go on the "feelings" argument, you lack any authority to pass laws. If it's just about "feelings" than how do you decide whose feelings are more important in the creation of laws? Are you sure that those who want to outlaw abortion reflect the wishes of America as a whole? If not, why should their feelings dictate the lives of others?
That's why people tie it to religion because they believe that with that connection they will convince folks that they are doing God's will by banning abortion. Otherwise it's a much harder argument since most of these same conservatives would have real issues with laws based on other people "feelings" about right and wrong.
Also, the content of the Bible was not created when the book was assembled. It's the product of a long oral tradition.
Anyway, I personally appreciate people who have identified a set value system, whatever that value system may be, because I know they can be held accountable when they stray from their espoused value system.
Finally, I don't think the people who are pushing to outlaw abortion really believe that it will solve the issue of women having abortions. They can't believe that given this country's history. So, as someone who is pushing to outlaw abortion, what do you see as the end result if this policy is adopted? Do you believe abortions will cease? Will they be dramatically decreased? Do you foresee any other consquences as a result of this choice? Have you thought about how to address those consequences?
Insurgent said:
"The self-discipline, understanding, introspection, etc. that is required to be a good parent is unlike the demands of anything else. And it is with that that we become closer to reaching whatever honorific one may wish for. Indeed, I believe that is why parenthood - Intended or unintended - is such an exalted status in true religious orthodoxy.
From the child's perspective, abortion is an unjustifiable interruption of the process of becoming."
Very nice. Do you believe that being a parent is more difficult than being a spouse, or just difficult in a different way? Just curious.
"How many "saintly" or glorified folk have you encountered in this life who have indisputably developed something permanent in themselves by which they might actually deserve the honorific "Christian"?"
How many people have you met qualified to make that judgment?
Being a parent is infinitely more demanding than being a good spouse. However, that said, I believe that being a good spouse is a prerequisite to being a good parent.
One first transcends herself through marriage. This is the preparation. But parenthood is the ultimate transcending of self. It is part of the coming to God, i.e. achieving of permanence, that CNu described above.
Hence why single parenthood is destructive and why it is utterly pointless to get married with no intent to have children. If you can't have them, it's one thing. But people who get married to play glorified roommates for life boggle my mind.
There are stages to everything and it is only silly ass liberals who believe that you can short-cut certain steps and still end up with an ideal outcome.
Thanks for the response.
Personally, I find marriage far more demanding and difficult than parenthood, but maybe that's because my early life was spent planning how I would handle parenthood, but not planning how I would handle marriage.
It seems that building a permanent, loving bond with another independent adult is far more difficult than raising and loving a (now) small dependent whose very existence is the result of God's blessings and my actions. I feel far more patience for the growing pains of my children, than those of my wife. Far more unconditional love honestly, although I do love my wife.
But, your point was an interesting one.
From the child's perspective, abortion is an unjustifiable interruption of the process of becoming.
lol,
Therein lies the rub.
A foetus has no "perspective" - lacking the subject in subject self-awareness.
A child experiences subjectivity as a "work in progress" - being of nafs/essence until the age of "moral responsibility" i.e., fully formed "I" of subjectivity, personhood, personality.
The essential is then sublimated/suppressed and personality formation begins in earnest.
and so on....,
The critical error here - as always with folks paying lip service to religious praxis - is that they tend to project their own level of subjective experience and wiseacring imagination onto/into children - all the way down to a newly conceived zygote - as if such a thing had even the most rudimentary aspect of subjectivity - WHICH IT DECIDEDLY DOES NOT.
Such people are idiots unworthy of wasting words on.
Their God-given common sense is completely broken.
(so also with people who imagine themselves as having acquired something permanent through no effort of their own - completely broken)
Actually Big Man, I've showed evidence that shows that abortion has always been a Contentious issue, especially in religious communities. Yes, the Bible comes from an oral tradition but it isn't the only oral tradition out there. And so what if it was?Are you telling me that people who don't believe in the Bible don't have a similar set of morals to people who might?
Abortion has been practiced since human beings have been on the planet but the practice has always had opponenets, citing the sanctity of life as the principal reason and I find this in many places. I showed above that the people who worship Vishnu believe abortion is a sin against the fetus, they call it zygote murder. On the other hand someone who is a Kali acolyte might show a picture with Kali wearing fetuses for earrings. That doesn't mean that abortion is condoned within that religion though. And there are some who believe that the age of Kali Yuga is an age of evil when abortion and state sanctioned murder will be rampant. This was prophesied thousands of years ago.
As to the Bible, I know that the ten commandments say that you shouldn't murder, which translates to kill an innocent human being. Certainly how the term human being is defined is at the crux of this issue in many ways. I say abortion is murder because a fetus is a human being. Cnu says that is irrelevant because aliveness does not confer person hood. Then he offers up examples of how Abrahamic religions define person hood.
I don't need their definition of what a person is to justify how I feel. I carried a baby inside for nine months; he damn sure was alive from the minute of conception. I KNEW I was pregnant the day that my husband impregnated me, I could feel something was different.
Yes, feelings matter. Otherwise, what you are saying is rational is simply some crap based upon what some guy feels is important logic. I don't need others to define my sense of right and wrong for me, and although abortion is contentious, I have researched and have not come across a society that survived, where INNOCENT life is taken with impunity.
The term INNOCENT is defined according to cultural context, but certainly it carries weight. As I get older my religious affiliation looks more like someone of the Bahai faith...
Like I said, I do want abortion to end as an elective practice. There may be certain situations where the life of a mother is threatened and if an abortion is the only way to save the mother, it should be a MEDICAL PROCEDURE, not something that people do to 'fix a mistake'.
^^ Beautiful Mahndisa
As to the fetus having no self awareness, Cnu you have stated unequivocally that it doesn't have a sense of being. What makes you think you are correct? Some belief systems say that a baby has a developed soul with wants and needs as soon as it is an embryo. That runs counter to your OPINION of a fetus being a conscious being. This is a comment from a neonatal therapist dealing with an Indian family back in the day:
"Blogger Kirkrrt said...
I don't know how the soul enters the baby. I do believe it is there from conception.
I believe souls are eternal and am very open to the idea of reincarnation.
Do souls ever get into the wrong body? I think it is possible.
I was a neonatal therapist for 10 years and have seen very premature babies defy "impossible" odds.
One short story about a family that changed my mindset.
In 1995 a baby was born at home after a difficult delivery and breathed in some meconium. Meconium is literally the first poo a baby makes while still inside the mother. The baby became very ill and was transported to the facility where I worked. The family followed some sort of Hindu sect and was very angry at how we were treating the baby. Over the next couple days we were doing everything we could to keep the baby alive and the parents kept asking us to stop. Lawyers and judges got involved.
The situation was resolved when the "regional?/American?" leader of the sect came and spoke with the doctors and family. He somehow convinced (I don't know how) the doctors to let him communicate with the boy's spirit and find out what he (the newborn) wanted.
I was there for the ritual.
When the leader came out of his trance he reported that the child wanted his parents to stop arguing with the staff and let us do out jobs. He also told the parents (through the leader) what his name was. I was floored.
Sarting about 3 minutes after the ritual?/ceramony? the child's condition improved dramatically.
Sorry, it wasn't such a short story.
11/02/2005 9:40 AM "
A foetus has no "perspective" - lacking the subject in subject self-awareness.
My bad CNu. I didn't mean that a foetus had perspective to understand what is happening. Not at all.
I was simply contrasting the inconsistency of abortion with the three stages that you outlined above in that they deprive the mother of part of the process of becoming Godly and they interrupt the pre-born child's chance of becoming.
Gift for Rig for strong fight for the unborn.
I like what you said :) and this minister did too;
" Johnny Hunter, an African-American pastor and president of the Life Education and Resource Network, a Christian coalition, told a rally in Georgia last month that opposition to abortion is the new civil rights struggle."
"The civil rights activists did not fight to make lynching safe, legal, and rare. They ended it. We must fight to end the ugliest form of racism: abortion," he said. "More black children die every four days from abortion than the Ku Klux Klan killed in 144 years … All the civil rights gained in education, voting and equal job opportunities mean nothing to a dead black child."
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