This guy need to stick with his PhD thesis, Jazz. He is not credible at all in my book because of the disinformatision he and the nuts around him help propogate early on the HIV/AIDS epidemic. IMHO, Because of the extensive level of disinformation RE:hiv back then, exposed to large numbers of folks in our community, led to a sense of "fuck it attitude" and naive that facilitated the wider spread of HIV in our community. Phuck him!
The Disinformation about AIDS came from Robert Gallo, the CDC and Plantation Medicine.
Do you realize HIV HAS NEVER BEEN ISOLATED FROM AIDS PATIENTS?
Never.
Not once.
Nada.
Why is AIDS a homosexual disease in the US and a heterosexual disease in Africa?
Do you realize how utterly UNSCIENTIFIC an AIDS Test is?
The Origin, Persistence and Failings of HIV / AIDS Theory- Henry Bauer:
"Most surprisingly, nobody has ever succeeded in demonstrating HIV particles in the blood of any AIDS patient by this simple method, even though patients were selected for presenting a so-called high “viral load” as determined by PCR methods. This embarrassing lack of electron microscope evidence for substantiating the nature of the so-called viral load in AIDS patients was first reported during an important AIDS conference that took place in Pretoria, S.A., in May 2000 (2). None of the AIDS experts present at that conference could demonstrate the presence of retroviral particles in the blood of AIDS patients. Moreover, almost two years ago, a substantial award ($100,000) was officially offered (3) to anybody who would demonstrate HIV particles in the blood of allegedly high viral load patients. Two years later, the award has still not been claimed. Obviously, what was so readily and reproducibly demonstrated in leukaemic mice has never been observed in any AIDS patient."
Source : Quack Watch--"...After comparing the articles to Null's PhD thesis, I made the following observations:
Since Null's thesis was published in 1989, I don't see how "updated versions" of it could have been published in 1981 and 1984. The 1981 and 1984 articles have multiple authors [9,10]. Null is not listed as lead author of either one. The papers give no indication of who contributed what to the paper. The 1981 article was a summary of published information about caffeine that was similar to the summary in Null's thesis. The 1984 article reported a study of 11 volunteers which is similar to the one reported in Null's thesis. It is not clear whether the thesis was based on the same data or whether Null did a second study. Neither journal has much of a reputation. As far as I can tell, neither one is indexed by MEDLINE. My MEDLINE search for "Null G" found only one article that was coauthored by Null and appeared in a pharmacy magazine [11]. When I asked Slater to clarify the time frames and to tell me where Null got the "M.S." degree listed after his name in the articles, he replied: "My client has instructed me to cease all further communications with you. He repeats his demand that you remove the offensive and libelous material from your website or face legal action." [12] ..."
My view is that HIV is probably one of the first man manipulated weaponized virus we know of. Everything else is BS and propoganda and just as deadly as the virus itself.
To expand more,HIV has different effects on different population groups. That is, some persons of northern heritage have a genetic resistance to the before unheard virus. As such, those of that ancestery were deemed slow progreessors or resistors. African persons and their descendants were deemed rapid progressors. These properties were based on defects, or not, (CCR5, etc..) on the surface receptors of white bloods that facilitiated the invasion of HIV into cells.
Anonymous said... To expand more,HIV has different effects on different population groups. That is, some persons of northern heritage have a genetic resistance to the before unheard virus. As such, those of that ancestery were deemed slow progreessors or resistors. African persons and their descendants were deemed rapid progressors. These properties were based on defects, or not, (CCR5, etc..) on the surface receptors of white bloods that facilitiated the invasion of HIV into cells.
".. NOBEL PRIZE IN CHEMISTRY winner Kary B. Mullis.." If it, NB, was in microbiology or infectious disease or genetics, I might buy Kary's hypothesis. But I guess I did not do enough acid back in the day. hehehe BTW, I've known of both of these fools for years and thought what Null and KM was propagating was nothing short of genocidal, IMHO, for those who were lazy and lamed brain, who would then use their info and that of others of his ilk, to justify theior "bad" or high risk behaviors. Nothing more.
GDawg I luv ya like watermelon and a teaspoon of Natural Pink Himilayan salt.
But you are 180 degrees backwards.
Three is no evidence HIV is the cause of AIDS.
Billions of dollars have been made on AIDS testing and on selling toxic AIDS medicine like AZT that not only doesn't work ... but appears to give AIDS symptoms.
Now I can walk you through this ...
Or you can take my word for it.
Or you can supply a link that demonstrates HIV is the cause of AIDS and I will PayPal you $1,000 ... TODAY.
Yes Brother it is genocide.
But once again, the people claiming to "help" us are murdering us by the millions and going to the bank at the same time.
You all need to checkout Peter Duesberg (sp?)... Cat published a 600 page book about 12 years that blew the AIDS shenanigans out of the water. And Gallo was right in the middle of it.
As DV said the HIV has never been isolated. Cats who had "HIV" only really had the antibodies supposedly associated with HIV. Meaning, one was HIV positive if he had the antibodies that destroyed the HIV virus.
Duesberg is wrong. Gallo only isolated HIV 1 because he found a way to culture the virus. You are wrong on this one. Dead wrong. Like I said before, you are still holding onto the lies of Christine Maggiore. Sad. Not to say that Big Pharma may have hidden a cure for this ailment, but they HAVE cultured HIV 1 and 2. Duesberg is an expert in cancer and not HIV. Do some more research.
I agree with Mahndisa on Duesberg being wrong, but a slight correction. Duesberg actually DOES have a background in virology (which makes it so mind boggling why he willfully threw his career down the toilet--smart people doing dumb things). I believe he did post-doctoral research at both Max Plank in Tubingen and UC Berkeley in virology, but as it relates to cancer. This however does not make up for his lack of expertise on HIV/AIDS. He has no data with which to argue his points. Duesberg has published reviews, not original research. The man went from respected professor at UC Berkeley to a laughing stock peddling dubious products. He didn't blow anything out of the water, except his own scientific career.
And like Mahndisa points out, Christine Maggiore (who along with her 3 year old daughter died of complications related to AIDS) was not credible either, and took her and a child to their death beds because of her own intransigence.
"Do you realize HIV HAS NEVER BEEN ISOLATED FROM AIDS PATIENTS?" MOTI
This quote is to incredible to even consider. Well at least our host took my advice and tried to get a new hustle for the new year, unfortunately it's the same old nonsense as everything else. I'm waiting for him to open up something that is TRULY controversial and has credible evidence on BOTH sides of the argument.
If establishment medicine knows so much about AIDS ... why are so many people dying?
When it comes to AIDS ... You Plantation MD's have failed MISERABLY.
Millions of people died unnecessarily of this disease under your watch.
AIDS has nearly wiped out an entire generation of southern Africa.
Under the watch of Plantation Negro MD's ... black people in this country have suffered disproportionately to the general population.
It is clear. Doc. You don't know shit about AIDS. You have no more reason to believe HIV is "THE" cause of AIDS than you have to believe the H1N1 Vaccine is safe.
All you know is that your beloved Plantation Medical Industrial Pharmaceutical complex has not been "proven" wrong to your satisfaction.
Yet you talk like Duesberg "threw his career away" because he dared stray away from Plantation Medicine mandates.
That's not a scientific observation Doc. That is a political affirmation. You are just stating an oath of allegiance.
Which is what Plantation Medicine has become. It is what you really do.
You do not practice medicine. You practice politics.
You are just delivery boy for Plantation drugs and Plantation approved medical procedures.
Look at the results of your industry's collective work.
The SICKEST PEOPLE ON THE PLANET.
I asked you what YOU thought ... and you still couldn't answer.
I hope people reading this blog appreciate the danger they put themselves in every time they place their health in the hands of medical doctors trained and conditioned to do what's best for the Plantation.
I marvel how simple you are. Your thinking is pedestrian at best. There is no depth in your thinking. Perhaps you should take a course in logic. Or at least quit staring into the mirror admiring your shea buttery skin while trying to form a coherent thought.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When are you going to stop with all this anti-medicine stuff?
You act like you know what it takes to become a physician. You don't. But are content to sit on your porch talk shit about subjects in which you are profoundly ignorant.
You so often have run away when I've challenged you...wonder why?
Actually Duesberg is an expert on retroviruses of which HIV is one. The problem with AIDS is that the definition of the disease has constantly evolved as circumstances required. The definition of AIDS today ain't what it was 25 years or even 10 years ago.
Basically it's like this: If one has, let's say pneumonia and HIV anti-bodies are present then its AIDS. If one has pneumonia and HIV anti-bodies are absent the one has pneumonia.
Beyond that, the whole thing about AIDS in Africa is highly suspect. Supposedly AIDS caused by HIV is mainly a heterosexual disease over there. Pretty much from inception. Supposedly it was passed from prostitutes to African men who, in turn gave it to their wives. Now it is EXTREMELY difficult for a woman to pass the virus on to a man. On the average it takes dozens and dozens of intercourse activity for a man to get the virus from a woman.
Now how is this supposed to work out mathematically?
Either these millions of men went mostly all screwed the same prostitutes, and dozens of times at that, or these men's wives liberally screwed other men besides their husbands. Dozens of times. Repeatedly. Many, many times.
Thing is, most African cultures frown upon women and extra-marital intercourse.
What is much more likely is that these people are victims of severe poverty, malnutrition, and, above all, environmental poisoning.
Unclean water, industrial waste, agricultural waste, unsafe and expired medications, etc. are much more likely than to stipulate that Africans basically "fuck too much". Which, of course, is the usual racist notion.
Thing is, most African cultures frown upon women and extra-marital intercourse.
Do most African cultures frown upon extra-marital intercourse for men?? Negro, please...
Unclean water, industrial waste, agricultural waste, unsafe and expired medications, etc. are much more likely than to stipulate that Africans basically "fuck too much".
Dude... by what logic do you presume that sexual mores would be the same in sub-Saharan Africa as in Western Europe or, say, Japan?
Also, Fish, your politically correct horseshit is easily challenged by looking at other venereal diseases.
"In Lagos, Nigeria, the popular belief is that a man is notfertile until he has had gonorrhea."
"French anthropologist Anne Retel-Laurentin has shown that the under-population of vast parts of Africa is due to the exceptionally his incidence of [sexually transmitted diseases]."
Those lines were written by a Canadian researcher in 1980, before the AIDS era. (Source.)
So how 'bout that gonorrhea, Mike? "Unclean water" or "fucking too much"? Hee-hee...
Fish, do some research on the genetic subtyping of viruses. Deusberg's expertise comes from studying viruses that lead to cancer. He is not an expert on HIV at all. He also believes that some races are inherently less intelligent than others. Is he still credible to you?
Without question, the AIDS epidemic in Africa is wretched and there is more than meets the eye there. But don't let ignorance disallow you from seeing the truth about its affects on the population...
Diseases that are newly discovered take TIME to categorize and gain information about. The reason the CDC defnition of AIDS has changed since 1986 or so is because more information has been found about HIV disease and its clinical manifestations.
In Africa, genetic subtyping has shown us that the principle way HIV is spread is through heterosexual contact. It is easy for a woman to get infected because she is the RECIPIENT! And the vagina is rich with cells that HIV LOVES to BIND itself to.
HIV also loves the foreskin because it is rich with Langerhans cells which contain receptors for HIV virus.
This does not mean I endorse abstinence nor circumcisions. But if you look at how the disease is spread, you will take precautions.
I believe much of what I've recently learned about HIV disease and its biochemistry.
Instead of putting up obsolete Maggiorian GARBAGE to justify your contentions, why not DEEPLY examine the issue?
The reason I believe HIV virus is manmade is because of WHO it is affecting the most AND HOW it works.
If you recall, a few years ago they found a group of young WHITE MEN who were infected with HIV but did not progress to an AIDS state and did not seem to develop opportunistic infections consistent with AIDS.
Genetic analysis showed that these men lack a CCR5 receptor on their cells, a receptor that HIV uses to dock and bind to cells before it infects them. Further research revealed that this genetic abnormality was almost non existent among other ethnic/racial groups. (Maybe Black Americans could have some incidence of the CCR5 deletion due to mixture...)
HIV has a few different clades and TWO distinct types. Phylogenetic analysis shows that HIV 2 is related to a sooty mangabay lentivirus and HIV 1 is related to chimpanzee viruses.
The newest idea is that consumption of bushmeat fueled the spread of this sickness. The first cases of AIDS were discovered in 1959, some Afican man died and then a homosexual teenage prostitute died in the USA in 1969 from it, although they didn't call it AIDS back then...
With that said, if you study the science of HIV disease, you will have many questions but they will actually have a basis in undisputed facts.
Bernard Goldberg had a great chapter in his book Bias about AIDS and the media.
"To get Americans to care about AIDS people (be it media, doctors, health organizations) must convince Americans that they run a risk of getting the disease.
Which obviously means that Americans must be convinced that AIDS is commonly transmitted heterosexually.
These people have nothing to apologize for because in their world it is perfectly OK to lie and deceive people if you are doing it for what you consider a good cause.
AIDS is transmitted by high risk behavior (in this case that behavior is poor health care practices with people who are already infected).
As a heterosexual your chances of contacting this disease are just not that probable.
Sure you can get a bad tranfusion or a female can get it from a bisexual guy but we all have a better shot of getting hit by a bus than getting an AIDS tainted tansfusion."
I always ask my male friends if they yap about AIDS research and money what they would find more important to research, AIDS or prostate cancer. I know which one I care about more.
"As a heterosexual your chances of contacting this disease are just not that probable"
That is incorrect. The majority of cases in sub saharan Africa are heterosexual women. It has to do with the clade of the virus and how it is most easily transmitted.
So much of this stuff you guys are spewing comes from the early eighties and mid nineties in terms of rhetoric. Come up with something that challenges the scientific research most recent and then you might seem credible.
Certainly on this site, good points are brought up about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. But there is no thought in these threads...
CHALLENGE:Name one original research study he has published on the subject. Anyone can write a review, the man has no data.
If you can refute that, go ahead.
"Supposedly AIDS caused by HIV is mainly a heterosexual disease over there"
It has LESS to do with heterosexual or homosexual, than it has to do mucus membranes and unprotected sexual behaviors. As a transmission route, anal receptive sex often breaks the anal mucosa, making entry to the blood stream and to target cells less difficult. The vaginal mucosa is also very inviting tissue, as are Langerhans cells under the uncircumcized penis...and do we need to talk oral sex too?
"Now it is EXTREMELY difficult for a woman to pass the virus on to a man. On the average it takes dozens and dozens of intercourse activity for a man to get the virus from a woman."
Mike you are an intelligent and reasonable guy.
Read, then read some more, then some more, and maybe even some more.
"Come up with something that challenges the scientific research most recent and then you might seem credible." Mandisa
"the" scientific research?
Silly. And disappointing Mahndisa.
As a scientist I would hope you would not fall for the false dichotomy that assumes there exists no diversity of opinion or interpretation of "the research" among scientists about the real cause of AIDS.
Whenever people speak in terms of "the" scientific research they are referring to establishment mandated scientific research which ultimately is 1 part science and 9 parts politics.
Kowtowing to political organizations who control"official" scientific inquiry is not part of the scientific method.
"Read, then read some more, then some more, and maybe even some more."
I read every reference you linked, DMG, and none of them were relevant. While the first reference says circumcision reduces the chance of infection with HIV it says nothing about the chances of getting HIV from a woman. The second is a study of EIGHT truck drivers in East Africa, and the third admits that HIV infection in Indonesia among high risk groups is low.
As to Peter Duisberg's studies. The man wrote a 720 page detailed book and numerous articles on the subject. I suggest you read them before you make the statements that imply that he is ignorant.
Mahndisa...
"He also believes that some races are inherently less intelligent than others."
I know about Duisberg's racism. So do I know about Watson's. That doesn't mean that neither has made contributions to science. The fact is, that I have to look at the facts involved. And when it comes to HIV and AIDS they are highly suspect.
@Mills.
David, firstly the HIV retrovirus is not exactly a sturdy thing. It's not that infectious unless it finds a way into the blood stream. The STDs cited by the article you linked are of an entirely different nature. In any case, I can't follow how you get to conclude from that article that Africans, particularly married African women, are more prone to extra-marital activity than people in European and American societies.
Female homosexuals have the lowest rate of HIV infection.
HIV infection has the highest rate of incidences among male homosexuals for a simple reason: When you stick a big foreign object up your ass, your rectum is likely to tear and the virus gets into the blood.
This is why heterosexual HIV infection is so hard to come by. Else most everybody would have it.
Male homosexuality is so frowned upon in most of Africa that folks get killed for engaging in the activity. Thus the likelihood of men having HIV should be LOWER in Africa than everywhere else.
Beyond that your "he he he he" comment is disgusting, particularly in this context where human lives are involved.
Where you think the heterosexual man with the circumcision is putting his dick?
So, let's say our host wrote a 720 page book about HIV/AIDS without performing not one experiment. Is he credible in your book?
I've read all about Duesberg LONG, LONG before this conversation. He's quite well known in the University of California system where I was educated. Again, not credible in this area. No data to back up his claims (you know what I'm going to say next, because I've said it in EVERY conversation on EVERY topic I've argued here...so you know where this is going to go...and having argued on my side, you know I don't fuck with dubious sources...).
The difference with Duesberg and Watson, is that Watson's contribution to science is reproducible (his later theories on psychology are not...I recall sitting through his lecture as an undergrad at UCSD and watching the audience file out in disgust).
Duesberg has no basis for his claims. I've asked you to refute my statement. You can't...don't make the same mistake our host makes on a daily basis. Come with facts or go home.
"I've read all about Duesberg LONG, LONG before this conversation."
DMG, if I read all of the stuff that "DV" wrote ABOUT you, I'd have to conclude that you are a nut. However, I read the stuff BY you. I strongly suggest that, before you and I continue this discussion, you read the writings BY Duisberg and not only what was written ABOUT him. I read his book when it came out and I've read his and other folk's stuff since. Please do both of us a favor and read his stuff, too. Then you can, if you find him to be fraudulent, criticize all you want. Because we'll have a common knowledge base to proceed from.
"Where you think the heterosexual man with the circumcision is putting his dick?"
Up another man's ass.
Why did I say that?
Because you've got to consider where he got the virus from in the first place.
Given that it is extremely difficult for the virus to pass from female to male via vaginal intercourse, it is much more likely that the male who has the HIV virus got it via anal intercourse or a dirty needle. Since I haven't come across a true female who has got the requisite body part for being "the top" during anal intercourse - namely a penis, it stand to reason that quite of few of these "heterosexual men" are not exclusively so and engage in anal intercourse - as "bottoms".
I'd suggest that getting from "bottom" to "top" ain't that difficult for these "heterosexual" men.
I have read Duesbergs reviews. As a matter of fact he was a topic of discussion in one of my graduate level courses. The man has NO ORIGINAL DATA REFUTING THE CURRENT hypothesis of HIV/AIDS. I repeat NO DATA. This isn't a tit for tat, I have nothing against the man personally, nor do I have anything against you backing him. But if you can't BACK UP what you say, then be prepared to be scrutinized. I sent you those articles, because I know you to be a reasonable debator.
Or woman's...don't act like this phenomena doesn't exist.
Sure, so called "down-low" behavior needs to be considered. But you also need to consider microabrasions and uncircumcized penile tissue.
If you consider microabrasions from anal receptive intercourse, then you must consider them in vaginal mucosa and near poorly keratinized inner prepuce of uncircumcized penile tissue which is undergoes frequent traumatic microabrasion, allowing entry of HIV.
Mike this isn't flying sauncers and conspiracy theory...this is just physiology and virology. Look it up, don't take my word for it.
^DMG, I never said that it is impossible as a man to get infected by HIV via unprotected vaginal intercourse. Circumcised or not. I said that the probability of getting infected specifically by HIV in such a manner is exceedingly low.
Now, do both of us a favor and read Duisberg's book before you make any more comments on it. Reviews are not enough in my opinion. I've read many reviews of the book over the years. Some were accurate and many were not. Please gauge the accuracy of the reviews you read against the book itself.
You know how allergic I am when it comes to folks making statements about stuff they admit they didn't read - like certain people carry on about Hegel, if you know what i mean.
I'm not talking about REVIEWS OF HIS BOOK, I'm talking about reviews HE HAS WRITTEN on the subject of HIV/AIDS and published in journals. I could give a shit less about a book review...or a book he's selling. Show me the data, that's all I ask.
And you should know by now I'm not going to read his book. It's not worth my time to read the book of someone who has NO DATA, and no argument. The only thing I'm interested in is PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL ARTICLES, not something you can buy on Amazon.com, published by non-scientists who don't know rRNA from a transcription factor.
Duesberg is not in the mainstream, but that doesn't mean he's waging some righteous fight against "the establishment". It means he's a fucking crank with no data who has now laying down with dogs trying to sell dubious products.
Don't waste my time with this. Present something PROVEN by Duesberg, with data to back it up or move on.
Not interested in Hegel, or whatever else you and MOTI go on about. That's not my thing. Talk science to me.
Fish, I asked: "Do you think that African MEN are more prone to extra-marital activity than people in European and American societies?"
You replied: "No."
Duuude. Perhaps you should investigate the question with an open mind... before popping an answer motivated by sheer political correctness.
Sorious Samura, a broadcast journalist from Sierra Leone, did a documentary a few years ago called "Living with AIDS."
Samura concluded that "sexual attitudes played a huge role" in the spread of AIDS, saying that "success [for men] is measured by the number of women they sleep around with."
He told a British newspaper, "I started having sex when I was seven."
From the Guardian: "According to Samura, Africans have to face up to this if there is any hope for the future."
Samura concluded that "sexual attitudes played a huge role" in the spread of AIDS, saying that "success [for men] is measured by the number of women they sleep around with."
...
...
it isn't?
If that's not successful, what is?
That attitude throughout human history is the reason we are here.
Men who seek to have sex with as few women as possible seem to dwindle out.
"success [for men] is measured by the number of women they sleep around with.'"
And what? That dictum doesn't apply to the Americas and Europe?
Maybe you didn't engage in sports as a kid or as an adult and witness the bragging sessions among boys and men in their respective locker rooms?
As to "seven year olds". You got any idea how many young boys throughout the Americas and Europe engage in sexual play with each other at that age in the form of "playing doctor"?
"Recent studies reveal that [in the US] 45-55% of married women and 50-60% of married men engage in extramarital sex at some time or another during their relationship (Atwood & Schwartz, 2002 - Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy)"
Looks like Americans, especially married ones, are fucking up a storm.
According to you, DV, I thought it was getting married and having a few kids.
As a husband and father, do you measure yourself by the number of women you sleep around with?
And do you not see Christianity and Islam as major culture forces inhibiting this sort of out-of-wedlock bonin'... and thus leading to more stable, family-oriented societies?
Shit is so fucking obvious... but some cats just like to waste time arguing.
"Duesberg is not in the mainstream, but that doesn't mean he's waging some righteous fight against "the establishment". It means he's a fucking crank with no data who has now laying down with dogs trying to sell dubious products."
I didn't say that he is or is not fighting the establishment. I really don't care about that. I care about facts, DMG. And I fear , sorry to say, that you are veering very close to "DV" territory in denouncing folks. But then again I may be entirely wrong. Thus I'd be interested to read the reviews by Duisberg you cited. Would you link these questionable reviews for me, please?
You got any idea how many young boys throughout the Americas and Europe engage in sexual play with each other at that age in the form of "playing doctor"?
Your shit is so weak, Michael.
Why don't you build up some mental muscles by investigating the opposite of your position? In other words, put your arguments on trial. You'd be surprised how much information is at your fingertips.
But I know how this game goes. Once presented with enough evidence that sexual mores are a major factor of the AIDS epidemic in Africa, you'll merely switch gears and blame those mores on a Global System of White Supremacy.
^David. It is you who has not presented a shred of evidence that Africans, particularly African men, are any more promiscuous than European or American ones. Do you seriously consider citing one guy as evidence? The fact is, so called "western" societies are HIGHLY promiscuous. And homosexual men even more so. That's cause they are MEN without the minimal "moral" constraint against promiscuity that is placed on women.
Now, the entertainment business, for example, which largely shapes our sexual values is the epidemy of that. Both in practice and in the images, stories, and music it pumps out on the daily.
Maybe that's all theory to you. Who knows when it was the last time you actually engaged in sexual activity. However, for most men in "western" society it ain't theory at all.
Do you seriously consider citing one guy as evidence?
The testimony of a bona fide African is certainly evidence. More significantly, for those with a questing intellect, such a citation points the way to further research.
Oh, and by the way, Fish... what evidence do you have that homosexual men are more promiscuous than heterosexual men?
^ Unclean water, industrial waste, agricultural waste, unsafe and expired medications, etc. are much more likely than to stipulate that homosexuals basically "fuck too much". Which, of course, is the usual homophobic notion.
^You're mixing apples with oranges, Mills. I didn't state that Gay men are infected with HIV because they tend to be promiscuous. I stated that they get infected because they put penises in each others' rectae which tends to cause these rectae to get damaged opening up a direct path to the blood stream.
As to promiscuity:
My statement as to promiscuity was just a statement about promiscuity in "western" society in response to your assertion that "western" society is somehow less promiscuous that the societies in Africa.
Personally I have nothing whatsoever against promiscuity. I don't think it is good or bad. It just is. There are times when I've practiced the same and times when I have not. And given that I've practiced promiscuity, there is nothing that would give me the right to judge male homosexual promiscuity either.
"Personally I have nothing whatsoever against promiscuity. I don't think it is good or bad. It just is. There are times when I've practiced the same and times when I have not. And given that I've practiced promiscuity, there is nothing that would give me the right to judge male homosexual promiscuity either. " MF
^^ What kind of politically correct Secular Oath of Allegiance to the Gay Lobby bulllll shiiiiit is that?
By the way, Mills. About the misspelling of epitome vs epidemy. As you know English is my second language. I didn't learn English until I was 15. I think I did pretty well, given the circumstances.
So, how's YOUR German? French? Spanish? Latin? Pig Latin? Anything?
^What "DV"? You never been promiscuous? And if you have, is it anyone's business except yours and the people involved? Is your possible promiscuity my business?
If it ain't, why would a gay person's promiscuity be yours? unless, of course you are one of the people involved?
What "DV"? You never been promiscuous? And if you have, is it anyone's business except yours and the people involved? Is your possible promiscuity my business? If it ain't, why would a gay person's promiscuity be yours? unless, of course you are one of the people involved?" MF
Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.
Pump your brakes "MF".
"Promiscuity"?
What the fuck is this ... high school?
Fucking too much will kill you just as quickly as eating too much.
Fucking the wrong people will kill you just as quickly as eating the wrong food.
It has nothing to do with write or wrong or judgment.
It's just acknowledgment of the obvious.
The rest of that shit you talking is homo pandering.
"Fucking too much will kill you just as quickly as eating too much."
Dang. Sexual intercourse is a vigorous physical activity. Doing a lot of it keeps you slim and trim. You didn't know that, "DV"?
You trying to tell me having "too much" sex with whoever your, "DV"'s, sexual partner is (or may be), is terminal? Your wife put that one over on ya? Wonder why...
So, tell me, is YOUR sex life (ahem, I mean death) any of MY business?
"So, tell me, is YOUR sex life (ahem, I mean death) any of MY business?"
Yes.
If I am asking that your tax dollars be allocated to "fight", "cure", "eradicate", "treat" or propagandize the consequences of my promiscuous sex.
If it is actually promiscuous dangerous sex that causes AIDS and not exclusively the "HIV" virus ... it is your business.
If you just want to pander to the Gay Lobby by pretending your declarations of "OKness" with homosexual sex makes you somehow "cool" or "evolved" that's your business too.
^Yes? Ok then. So tell me. Who have you been fucking last, if at all, when, where, and particularly how. Have you been sticking your dick up the person's or persons' ass? Did you lick their asshole? Did they stick something up your ass?
Make sure you answer in detail so that I can determine whether your sexual practices are dangerous to life and limb.
Anecdotal evidence from living in NYC and Atlanta that is quite a bit more credible than your one-guy-citation.
Fish... would you like to see more “anecdotal evidence” that sexual promiscuity is driving the AIDS crisis in Africa? If so, how much of it might suffice to persuade you?
Boston’s Rev. Eugene Rivers III, a Harvard-educated activist minister who has traveled extensively in Africa, said in 1999:
“Let me be very blunt: the heterosexual transmission of AIDS is, in Africa, a function of truly pathological promiscuity. ...
“There was something politically sensitive about criticizing Africans for their sexual behavior because of the concerns that some had that one might be starting down the slippery slope of racial stereotyping. ... We insist on the obvious: stereotypes or not, certain behaviors by African men, associated with certain types of cultural norms... are killing people.”
"Oh Shit! ... GMO Food Sterilizes People ... And It's Really A Form of Population Control?"
"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."
INTELLECTUAL INSURRECTIONISTS
Alexander King, Bertrand Schneider - founder Club of Rome - The First Global Revolution, pp.104-105
"In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill ... All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."
Were We All Kunta Kinte? Or Are We Also Mansa Musa?
Plantation Negros & The New World Order
Illuminati Want My Mind Soul & My Body - A DV Joint
Barry Goldwater 1909-1998
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. "
Robert Mugabe Speaks To Thunderous Approval At Harlem's Mount Olive Baptist Church
The Honorable Elijah Muhammad
"It Is Easier To Change A Man's Religion Than It Is To Change His Diet"
Private Prison Industry
2,000,000 human beings in American prisons and counting
IS THIS LITTLE GUY A PERSON?
The founders of the American state understood that the proper functioning of a democracy required an educated electorate. It is this understanding that justifies a system of public education and that led slaveholders to resist the spread of literacy among their chattels. But the meaning of "educated" has changed beyond recognition in two hundred years. Reading, writing, and arithmetic are no longer sufficient to decide on public policy. Now we need quantum mechanics and molecular biology. The knowledge required for political rationality, once available to the masses, is now in the possession of a specially educated elite, a situation that creates a series of tensions and contradictions in the operation of representative democracy.
Greater Display of Conspicuous Consumption?
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. P
"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."
Louis Pasteur
"The Microbe is nothing. The terrain is everything."
A DV JOINT
Ask Denmark Vesey
DenmarkVesey1822@hotmail.com
Chris Hedges Warns of The Dangers of The "New Atheists" and "Secular Fundamentalists"
Beverly Johnson. Beverly Hills. 1978
Do You Consider Yourself:
"Bra! Tell Me About It!"
"Most of the trouble I have had in advancing the cause of the race has come from Negroes."
Is President Barack Hussein Obama The Driving Force Behind US Policy?
Ted Turner - CNN founder and UN supporter - quoted in the The McAlvany Intelligence Advisor, June '
"A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal."
Lord Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science On Society (Routledge Press: New York, 1951).
"At present the population of the world is increasing at about 58,000 per diem. War, so far, has had no very great effect on this increase, which continued throughout each of the world wars.. War has hitherto been disappointing in this respect, but perhaps bacteriological war may prove effective. If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it?"
Denmark Vesey For President 08
1. Troops Out Of Iraq Immediately. Like By Monday. 2. Money Owed To Haliburton and War Contractors Be Given Directly To The Iraqi People 3. Complete Electoral Reform 4. No Corporate Conglomerate Will Be Allowed To Control More Than 5% Of News Market 5. Federal Reserve Abolished 6. For-Profit Prison Industry Abolished
*George Orwell (1903-1950) English novelist, critic
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness... If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... The great enemy of clear language is insincerity... The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it... To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle... For a creative writer possession of the truth is less important than emotional sincerity.
“The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society will be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values.” – Zbigniew Brzezinski
God Don't Make No Mistakes
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Gordon Parks 1912-2006
"I suffered evils, but without allowing them to rob me of the freedom to expand."
73 comments:
This guy need to stick with his PhD thesis, Jazz. He is not credible at all in my book because of the disinformatision he and the nuts around him help propogate early on the HIV/AIDS epidemic. IMHO, Because of the extensive level of disinformation RE:hiv back then, exposed to large numbers of folks in our community, led to a sense of "fuck it attitude" and naive that facilitated the wider spread of HIV in our community. Phuck him!
Nahhhhh ... GD.
You really missed this one Bra.
The Disinformation about AIDS came from Robert Gallo, the CDC and Plantation Medicine.
Do you realize HIV HAS NEVER BEEN ISOLATED FROM AIDS PATIENTS?
Never.
Not once.
Nada.
Why is AIDS a homosexual disease in the US and a heterosexual disease in Africa?
Do you realize how utterly UNSCIENTIFIC an AIDS Test is?
The Origin, Persistence and Failings of HIV / AIDS Theory- Henry Bauer:
"Most surprisingly, nobody has ever succeeded in demonstrating HIV particles in the blood of any AIDS patient by this simple method, even though patients were selected for presenting a so-called high “viral load” as determined by PCR methods. This embarrassing lack of electron microscope evidence for substantiating the nature of the so-called viral load in AIDS patients was first reported during an important AIDS conference that took place in Pretoria, S.A., in May 2000 (2). None of the AIDS experts present at that conference could demonstrate the presence of retroviral particles in the blood of AIDS patients. Moreover, almost two years ago, a substantial award ($100,000) was officially offered (3) to anybody who would demonstrate HIV particles in the blood of allegedly high viral load patients. Two years later, the award has still not been claimed. Obviously, what was so readily and reproducibly demonstrated in leukaemic mice has never been observed in any AIDS patient."
Source : Quack Watch--"...After comparing the articles to Null's PhD thesis, I made the following observations:
Since Null's thesis was published in 1989, I don't see how "updated versions" of it could have been published in 1981 and 1984.
The 1981 and 1984 articles have multiple authors [9,10]. Null is not listed as lead author of either one. The papers give no indication of who contributed what to the paper.
The 1981 article was a summary of published information about caffeine that was similar to the summary in Null's thesis.
The 1984 article reported a study of 11 volunteers which is similar to the one reported in Null's thesis. It is not clear whether the thesis was based on the same data or whether Null did a second study.
Neither journal has much of a reputation. As far as I can tell, neither one is indexed by MEDLINE.
My MEDLINE search for "Null G" found only one article that was coauthored by Null and appeared in a pharmacy magazine [11].
When I asked Slater to clarify the time frames and to tell me where Null got the "M.S." degree listed after his name in the articles, he replied: "My client has instructed me to cease all further communications with you. He repeats his demand that you remove the offensive and libelous material from your website or face legal action." [12] ..."
My view is that HIV is probably one of the first man manipulated weaponized virus we know of.
Everything else is BS and propoganda and just as deadly as the virus itself.
To expand more,HIV has different effects on different population groups.
That is, some persons of northern heritage have a genetic resistance to the before unheard virus. As such, those of that ancestery were deemed slow progreessors or resistors.
African persons and their descendants were deemed rapid progressors.
These properties were based on defects, or not, (CCR5, etc..) on the surface receptors of white bloods that facilitiated the invasion of HIV into cells.
Anonymous said...
To expand more,HIV has different effects on different population groups.
That is, some persons of northern heritage have a genetic resistance to the before unheard virus. As such, those of that ancestery were deemed slow progreessors or resistors.
African persons and their descendants were deemed rapid progressors.
These properties were based on defects, or not, (CCR5, etc..) on the surface receptors of white bloods that facilitiated the invasion of HIV into cells.
Should have said "northern european heritage and white blood cells" in the previous post.
Break that down a bit more GDawg. I'm not sure I follow.
You mentioned QuackWatch I don't know why. Gary Knull barely even speaks in the video.
One of the leading skeptics of the HIV / AIDS Hypothesis interviewed in the documentary is NOBEL PRIZE IN CHEMISTRY winner Kary B. Mullis.
(Did you actually watch any of the film? Or just Google Gary Null and dismissed the messenger?)
Please look at it more carefully brother, I'd really like to hear your thoughts after you've been presented with the information.
".. NOBEL PRIZE IN CHEMISTRY winner Kary B. Mullis.." If it, NB, was in microbiology or infectious disease or genetics, I might buy Kary's hypothesis. But I guess I did not do enough acid back in the day. hehehe
BTW, I've known of both of these fools for years and thought what Null and KM was propagating was nothing short of genocidal, IMHO, for those who were lazy and lamed brain, who would then use their info and that of others of his ilk, to justify theior "bad" or high risk behaviors. Nothing more.
There was a Law and Order episode along these lines recently.
I was wondering when the topic would pop up here.
Yep. These HIV naysayers are truly deadly distractions whereby folks in our community can least afford to listen to them!
GDawg I luv ya like watermelon and a teaspoon of Natural Pink Himilayan salt.
But you are 180 degrees backwards.
Three is no evidence HIV is the cause of AIDS.
Billions of dollars have been made on AIDS testing and on selling toxic AIDS medicine like AZT that not only doesn't work ... but appears to give AIDS symptoms.
Now I can walk you through this ...
Or you can take my word for it.
Or you can supply a link that demonstrates HIV is the cause of AIDS and I will PayPal you $1,000 ... TODAY.
Yes Brother it is genocide.
But once again, the people claiming to "help" us are murdering us by the millions and going to the bank at the same time.
You all need to checkout Peter Duesberg (sp?)... Cat published a 600 page book about 12 years that blew the AIDS shenanigans out of the water. And Gallo was right in the middle of it.
As DV said the HIV has never been isolated. Cats who had "HIV" only really had the antibodies supposedly associated with HIV. Meaning, one was HIV positive if he had the antibodies that destroyed the HIV virus.
"NOBEL PRIZE IN CHEMISTRY winner Kary B. Mullis"
Funny you should mention Kary Mullis. I met that cat.
Without Googling, do you know how he won his Nobel Prize?
Wanna guess what he spent his Nobel Prize winnings on...and the last time he actually published a paper?
Duesberg is wrong. Gallo only isolated HIV 1 because he found a way to culture the virus. You are wrong on this one. Dead wrong. Like I said before, you are still holding onto the lies of Christine Maggiore. Sad. Not to say that Big Pharma may have hidden a cure for this ailment, but they HAVE cultured HIV 1 and 2. Duesberg is an expert in cancer and not HIV. Do some more research.
Are you saying certain groups were targeted?
Mahndisa I am curious. Did you watch the film?
I agree with Mahndisa on Duesberg being wrong, but a slight correction. Duesberg actually DOES have a background in virology (which makes it so mind boggling why he willfully threw his career down the toilet--smart people doing dumb things). I believe he did post-doctoral research at both Max Plank in Tubingen and UC Berkeley in virology, but as it relates to cancer. This however does not make up for his lack of expertise on HIV/AIDS. He has no data with which to argue his points. Duesberg has published reviews, not original research. The man went from respected professor at UC Berkeley to a laughing stock peddling dubious products. He didn't blow anything out of the water, except his own scientific career.
And like Mahndisa points out, Christine Maggiore (who along with her 3 year old daughter died of complications related to AIDS) was not credible either, and took her and a child to their death beds because of her own intransigence.
"Do you realize HIV HAS NEVER BEEN ISOLATED FROM AIDS PATIENTS?" MOTI
This quote is to incredible to even consider. Well at least our host took my advice and tried to get a new hustle for the new year, unfortunately it's the same old nonsense as everything else. I'm waiting for him to open up something that is TRULY controversial and has credible evidence on BOTH sides of the argument.
I can only dream.
LOL.
Plantation Negro MD.
I marvel at the extent of your mental slavery.
If establishment medicine knows so much about AIDS ... why are so many people dying?
When it comes to AIDS ... You Plantation MD's have failed MISERABLY.
Millions of people died unnecessarily of this disease under your watch.
AIDS has nearly wiped out an entire generation of southern Africa.
Under the watch of Plantation Negro MD's ... black people in this country have suffered disproportionately to the general population.
It is clear. Doc. You don't know shit about AIDS. You have no more reason to believe HIV is "THE" cause of AIDS than you have to believe the H1N1 Vaccine is safe.
All you know is that your beloved Plantation Medical Industrial Pharmaceutical complex has not been "proven" wrong to your satisfaction.
Yet you talk like Duesberg "threw his career away" because he dared stray away from Plantation Medicine mandates.
That's not a scientific observation Doc. That is a political affirmation. You are just stating an oath of allegiance.
Which is what Plantation Medicine has become. It is what you really do.
You do not practice medicine. You practice politics.
You are just delivery boy for Plantation drugs and Plantation approved medical procedures.
Look at the results of your industry's collective work.
The SICKEST PEOPLE ON THE PLANET.
I asked you what YOU thought ... and you still couldn't answer.
I hope people reading this blog appreciate the danger they put themselves in every time they place their health in the hands of medical doctors trained and conditioned to do what's best for the Plantation.
I marvel how simple you are. Your thinking is pedestrian at best. There is no depth in your thinking. Perhaps you should take a course in logic. Or at least quit staring into the mirror admiring your shea buttery skin while trying to form a coherent thought.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When are you going to stop with all this anti-medicine stuff?
You act like you know what it takes to become a physician. You don't. But are content to sit on your porch talk shit about subjects in which you are profoundly ignorant.
You so often have run away when I've challenged you...wonder why?
DMG,
What does it mean to be HIV POSITIVE?
DMG, I have to disagree with you on this one.
Actually Duesberg is an expert on retroviruses of which HIV is one. The problem with AIDS is that the definition of the disease has constantly evolved as circumstances required. The definition of AIDS today ain't what it was 25 years or even 10 years ago.
Basically it's like this: If one has, let's say pneumonia and HIV anti-bodies are present then its AIDS. If one has pneumonia and HIV anti-bodies are absent the one has pneumonia.
Beyond that, the whole thing about AIDS in Africa is highly suspect. Supposedly AIDS caused by HIV is mainly a heterosexual disease over there. Pretty much from inception. Supposedly it was passed from prostitutes to African men who, in turn gave it to their wives. Now it is EXTREMELY difficult for a woman to pass the virus on to a man. On the average it takes dozens and dozens of intercourse activity for a man to get the virus from a woman.
Now how is this supposed to work out mathematically?
Either these millions of men went mostly all screwed the same prostitutes, and dozens of times at that, or these men's wives liberally screwed other men besides their husbands. Dozens of times. Repeatedly. Many, many times.
Thing is, most African cultures frown upon women and extra-marital intercourse.
What is much more likely is that these people are victims of severe poverty, malnutrition, and, above all, environmental poisoning.
Unclean water, industrial waste, agricultural waste, unsafe and expired medications, etc. are much more likely than to stipulate that Africans basically "fuck too much". Which, of course, is the usual racist notion.
Thing is, most African cultures frown upon women and extra-marital intercourse.
Do most African cultures frown upon extra-marital intercourse for men?? Negro, please...
Unclean water, industrial waste, agricultural waste, unsafe and expired medications, etc. are much more likely than to stipulate that Africans basically "fuck too much".
Dude... by what logic do you presume that sexual mores would be the same in sub-Saharan Africa as in Western Europe or, say, Japan?
Also, Fish, your politically correct horseshit is easily challenged by looking at other venereal diseases.
"In Lagos, Nigeria, the popular belief is that a man is notfertile until he has had gonorrhea."
"French anthropologist Anne Retel-Laurentin has shown that the under-population of vast parts of Africa is due to the exceptionally his incidence of [sexually transmitted diseases]."
Those lines were written by a Canadian researcher in 1980, before the AIDS era. (Source.)
So how 'bout that gonorrhea, Mike? "Unclean water" or "fucking too much"? Hee-hee...
Fish, do some research on the genetic subtyping of viruses. Deusberg's expertise comes from studying viruses that lead to cancer. He is not an expert on HIV at all. He also believes that some races are inherently less intelligent than others. Is he still credible to you?
Without question, the AIDS epidemic in Africa is wretched and there is more than meets the eye there. But don't let ignorance disallow you from seeing the truth about its affects on the population...
Diseases that are newly discovered take TIME to categorize and gain information about. The reason the CDC defnition of AIDS has changed since 1986 or so is because more information has been found about HIV disease and its clinical manifestations.
In Africa, genetic subtyping has shown us that the principle way HIV is spread is through heterosexual contact. It is easy for a woman to get infected because she is the RECIPIENT! And the vagina is rich with cells that HIV LOVES to BIND itself to.
HIV also loves the foreskin because it is rich with Langerhans cells which contain receptors for HIV virus.
This does not mean I endorse abstinence nor circumcisions. But if you look at how the disease is spread, you will take precautions.
I believe much of what I've recently learned about HIV disease and its biochemistry.
Instead of putting up obsolete Maggiorian GARBAGE to justify your contentions, why not DEEPLY examine the issue?
The reason I believe HIV virus is manmade is because of WHO it is affecting the most AND HOW it works.
If you recall, a few years ago they found a group of young WHITE MEN who were infected with HIV but did not progress to an AIDS state and did not seem to develop opportunistic infections consistent with AIDS.
Genetic analysis showed that these men lack a CCR5 receptor on their cells, a receptor that HIV uses to dock and bind to cells before it infects them. Further research revealed that this genetic abnormality was almost non existent among other ethnic/racial groups. (Maybe Black Americans could have some incidence of the CCR5 deletion due to mixture...)
HIV has a few different clades and TWO distinct types. Phylogenetic analysis shows that HIV 2 is related to a sooty mangabay lentivirus and HIV 1 is related to chimpanzee viruses.
The newest idea is that consumption of bushmeat fueled the spread of this sickness. The first cases of AIDS were discovered in 1959, some Afican man died and then a homosexual teenage prostitute died in the USA in 1969 from it, although they didn't call it AIDS back then...
With that said, if you study the science of HIV disease, you will have many questions but they will actually have a basis in undisputed facts.
Bernard Goldberg had a great chapter in his book Bias about AIDS and the media.
"To get Americans to care about AIDS people (be it media, doctors, health organizations) must convince Americans that they run a risk of getting the disease.
Which obviously means that Americans must be convinced that AIDS is commonly transmitted heterosexually.
These people have nothing to apologize for because in their world it is perfectly OK to lie and deceive people if you are doing it for what you consider a good cause.
AIDS is transmitted by high risk behavior (in this case that behavior is poor health care practices with people who are already infected).
As a heterosexual your chances of contacting this disease are just not that probable.
Sure you can get a bad tranfusion or a female can get it from a bisexual guy but we all have a better shot of getting hit by a bus than getting an AIDS tainted tansfusion."
I always ask my male friends if they yap about AIDS research and money what they would find more important to research, AIDS or prostate cancer. I know which one I care about more.
"As a heterosexual your chances of contacting this disease are just not that probable"
That is incorrect. The majority of cases in sub saharan Africa are heterosexual women. It has to do with the clade of the virus and how it is most easily transmitted.
So much of this stuff you guys are spewing comes from the early eighties and mid nineties in terms of rhetoric. Come up with something that challenges the scientific research most recent and then you might seem credible.
Certainly on this site, good points are brought up about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. But there is no thought in these threads...
But there is no thought in these threads...
The boldest thought of all: That people make their own reality by how they behave.
Mike,
Duesberg is NOT an expert on HIV.
CHALLENGE:Name one original research study he has published on the subject. Anyone can write a review, the man has no data.
If you can refute that, go ahead.
"Supposedly AIDS caused by HIV is mainly a heterosexual disease over there"
It has LESS to do with heterosexual or homosexual, than it has to do mucus membranes and unprotected sexual behaviors. As a transmission route, anal receptive sex often breaks the anal mucosa, making entry to the blood stream and to target cells less difficult. The vaginal mucosa is also very inviting tissue, as are Langerhans cells under the uncircumcized penis...and do we need to talk oral sex too?
"Now it is EXTREMELY difficult for a woman to pass the virus on to a man. On the average it takes dozens and dozens of intercourse activity for a man to get the virus from a woman."
Mike you are an intelligent and reasonable guy.
Read, then read some more, then some more, and maybe even some more.
PS much respect to Mahndisa on this topic. Great information.
"Come up with something that challenges the scientific research most recent and then you might seem credible." Mandisa
"the" scientific research?
Silly. And disappointing Mahndisa.
As a scientist I would hope you would not fall for the false dichotomy that assumes there exists no diversity of opinion or interpretation of "the research" among scientists about the real cause of AIDS.
Whenever people speak in terms of "the" scientific research they are referring to establishment mandated scientific research which ultimately is 1 part science and 9 parts politics.
Kowtowing to political organizations who control"official" scientific inquiry is not part of the scientific method.
DMG...
"Read, then read some more, then some more, and maybe even some more."
I read every reference you linked, DMG, and none of them were relevant. While the first reference says circumcision reduces the chance of infection with HIV it says nothing about the chances of getting HIV from a woman. The second is a study of EIGHT truck drivers in East Africa, and the third admits that HIV infection in Indonesia among high risk groups is low.
As to Peter Duisberg's studies. The man wrote a 720 page detailed book and numerous articles on the subject. I suggest you read them before you make the statements that imply that he is ignorant.
Mahndisa...
"He also believes that some races are inherently less intelligent than others."
I know about Duisberg's racism. So do I know about Watson's. That doesn't mean that neither has made contributions to science. The fact is, that I have to look at the facts involved. And when it comes to HIV and AIDS they are highly suspect.
@Mills.
David, firstly the HIV retrovirus is not exactly a sturdy thing. It's not that infectious unless it finds a way into the blood stream. The STDs cited by the article you linked are of an entirely different nature. In any case, I can't follow how you get to conclude from that article that Africans, particularly married African women, are more prone to extra-marital activity than people in European and American societies.
Female homosexuals have the lowest rate of HIV infection.
HIV infection has the highest rate of incidences among male homosexuals for a simple reason: When you stick a big foreign object up your ass, your rectum is likely to tear and the virus gets into the blood.
This is why heterosexual HIV infection is so hard to come by. Else most everybody would have it.
Male homosexuality is so frowned upon in most of Africa that folks get killed for engaging in the activity. Thus the likelihood of men having HIV should be LOWER in Africa than everywhere else.
Beyond that your "he he he he" comment is disgusting, particularly in this context where human lives are involved.
Beyond that your "he he he he" comment is disgusting, particularly in this context where human lives are involved.
I'm cracking on YOU, Fish... not poor disease-ridden Africans.
Now answer me this: Do you think that African MEN are more prone to extra-marital activity than people in European and American societies?
If so... who dey fuckin'??
Mills...
"Now answer me this: Do you think that African MEN are more prone to extra-marital activity than people in European and American societies?"
No.
Mike,
Where you think the heterosexual man with the circumcision is putting his dick?
So, let's say our host wrote a 720 page book about HIV/AIDS without performing not one experiment. Is he credible in your book?
I've read all about Duesberg LONG, LONG before this conversation. He's quite well known in the University of California system where I was educated. Again, not credible in this area. No data to back up his claims (you know what I'm going to say next, because I've said it in EVERY conversation on EVERY topic I've argued here...so you know where this is going to go...and having argued on my side, you know I don't fuck with dubious sources...).
The difference with Duesberg and Watson, is that Watson's contribution to science is reproducible (his later theories on psychology are not...I recall sitting through his lecture as an undergrad at UCSD and watching the audience file out in disgust).
Duesberg has no basis for his claims. I've asked you to refute my statement. You can't...don't make the same mistake our host makes on a daily basis. Come with facts or go home.
DMG...
"I've read all about Duesberg LONG, LONG before this conversation."
DMG, if I read all of the stuff that "DV" wrote ABOUT you, I'd have to conclude that you are a nut. However, I read the stuff BY you. I strongly suggest that, before you and I continue this discussion, you read the writings BY Duisberg and not only what was written ABOUT him. I read his book when it came out and I've read his and other folk's stuff since. Please do both of us a favor and read his stuff, too. Then you can, if you find him to be fraudulent, criticize all you want. Because we'll have a common knowledge base to proceed from.
DMG...
"Where you think the heterosexual man with the circumcision is putting his dick?"
Up another man's ass.
Why did I say that?
Because you've got to consider where he got the virus from in the first place.
Given that it is extremely difficult for the virus to pass from female to male via vaginal intercourse, it is much more likely that the male who has the HIV virus got it via anal intercourse or a dirty needle. Since I haven't come across a true female who has got the requisite body part for being "the top" during anal intercourse - namely a penis, it stand to reason that quite of few of these "heterosexual men" are not exclusively so and engage in anal intercourse - as "bottoms".
I'd suggest that getting from "bottom" to "top" ain't that difficult for these "heterosexual" men.
Mike,
I have read Duesbergs reviews. As a matter of fact he was a topic of discussion in one of my graduate level courses. The man has NO ORIGINAL DATA REFUTING THE CURRENT hypothesis of HIV/AIDS. I repeat NO DATA. This isn't a tit for tat, I have nothing against the man personally, nor do I have anything against you backing him. But if you can't BACK UP what you say, then be prepared to be scrutinized. I sent you those articles, because I know you to be a reasonable debator.
It ain't personal.
"Up another man's ass."
Or woman's...don't act like this phenomena doesn't exist.
Sure, so called "down-low" behavior needs to be considered. But you also need to consider microabrasions and uncircumcized penile tissue.
If you consider microabrasions from anal receptive intercourse, then you must consider them in vaginal mucosa and near poorly keratinized inner prepuce of uncircumcized penile tissue which is undergoes frequent traumatic microabrasion, allowing entry of HIV.
Mike this isn't flying sauncers and conspiracy theory...this is just physiology and virology. Look it up, don't take my word for it.
^DMG, I never said that it is impossible as a man to get infected by HIV via unprotected vaginal intercourse. Circumcised or not. I said that the probability of getting infected specifically by HIV in such a manner is exceedingly low.
Now, do both of us a favor and read Duisberg's book before you make any more comments on it. Reviews are not enough in my opinion. I've read many reviews of the book over the years. Some were accurate and many were not. Please gauge the accuracy of the reviews you read against the book itself.
You know how allergic I am when it comes to folks making statements about stuff they admit they didn't read - like certain people carry on about Hegel, if you know what i mean.
Mike,
I'm not talking about REVIEWS OF HIS BOOK, I'm talking about reviews HE HAS WRITTEN on the subject of HIV/AIDS and published in journals. I could give a shit less about a book review...or a book he's selling. Show me the data, that's all I ask.
And you should know by now I'm not going to read his book. It's not worth my time to read the book of someone who has NO DATA, and no argument. The only thing I'm interested in is PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL ARTICLES, not something you can buy on Amazon.com, published by non-scientists who don't know rRNA from a transcription factor.
Duesberg is not in the mainstream, but that doesn't mean he's waging some righteous fight against "the establishment". It means he's a fucking crank with no data who has now laying down with dogs trying to sell dubious products.
Don't waste my time with this. Present something PROVEN by Duesberg, with data to back it up or move on.
Not interested in Hegel, or whatever else you and MOTI go on about. That's not my thing. Talk science to me.
Fish, I asked: "Do you think that African MEN are more prone to extra-marital activity than people in European and American societies?"
You replied: "No."
Duuude. Perhaps you should investigate the question with an open mind... before popping an answer motivated by sheer political correctness.
Sorious Samura, a broadcast journalist from Sierra Leone, did a documentary a few years ago called "Living with AIDS."
Samura concluded that "sexual attitudes played a huge role" in the spread of AIDS, saying that "success [for men] is measured by the number of women they sleep around with."
He told a British newspaper, "I started having sex when I was seven."
From the Guardian: "According to Samura, Africans have to face up to this if there is any hope for the future."
Samura concluded that "sexual attitudes played a huge role" in the spread of AIDS, saying that "success [for men] is measured by the number of women they sleep around with."
...
...
it isn't?
If that's not successful, what is?
That attitude throughout human history is the reason we are here.
Men who seek to have sex with as few women as possible seem to dwindle out.
Mills...
"success [for men] is measured by the number of women they sleep around with.'"
And what? That dictum doesn't apply to the Americas and Europe?
Maybe you didn't engage in sports as a kid or as an adult and witness the bragging sessions among boys and men in their respective locker rooms?
As to "seven year olds". You got any idea how many young boys throughout the Americas and Europe engage in sexual play with each other at that age in the form of "playing doctor"?
"Recent studies reveal that [in the US] 45-55% of married women and 50-60% of married men engage in extramarital sex at some time or another during their relationship (Atwood & Schwartz, 2002 - Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy)"
Looks like Americans, especially married ones, are fucking up a storm.
If that's not successful, what is?
According to you, DV, I thought it was getting married and having a few kids.
As a husband and father, do you measure yourself by the number of women you sleep around with?
And do you not see Christianity and Islam as major culture forces inhibiting this sort of out-of-wedlock bonin'... and thus leading to more stable, family-oriented societies?
Shit is so fucking obvious... but some cats just like to waste time arguing.
DMG...
"Duesberg is not in the mainstream, but that doesn't mean he's waging some righteous fight against "the establishment". It means he's a fucking crank with no data who has now laying down with dogs trying to sell dubious products."
I didn't say that he is or is not fighting the establishment. I really don't care about that. I care about facts, DMG. And I fear , sorry to say, that you are veering very close to "DV" territory in denouncing folks. But then again I may be entirely wrong. Thus I'd be interested to read the reviews by Duisberg you cited. Would you link these questionable reviews for me, please?
You got any idea how many young boys throughout the Americas and Europe engage in sexual play with each other at that age in the form of "playing doctor"?
Your shit is so weak, Michael.
Why don't you build up some mental muscles by investigating the opposite of your position? In other words, put your arguments on trial. You'd be surprised how much information is at your fingertips.
But I know how this game goes. Once presented with enough evidence that sexual mores are a major factor of the AIDS epidemic in Africa, you'll merely switch gears and blame those mores on a Global System of White Supremacy.
Hee. Hee.
^David. It is you who has not presented a shred of evidence that Africans, particularly African men, are any more promiscuous than European or American ones. Do you seriously consider citing one guy as evidence? The fact is, so called "western" societies are HIGHLY promiscuous. And homosexual men even more so. That's cause they are MEN without the minimal "moral" constraint against promiscuity that is placed on women.
Now, the entertainment business, for example, which largely shapes our sexual values is the epidemy of that. Both in practice and in the images, stories, and music it pumps out on the daily.
Maybe that's all theory to you. Who knows when it was the last time you actually engaged in sexual activity. However, for most men in "western" society it ain't theory at all.
Do you seriously consider citing one guy as evidence?
The testimony of a bona fide African is certainly evidence. More significantly, for those with a questing intellect, such a citation points the way to further research.
Oh, and by the way, Fish... what evidence do you have that homosexual men are more promiscuous than heterosexual men?
And what the fuck does "epidemy" mean, Yalie?
^Wha? So I misspelled epitome. Sue me.
Mills...
"what evidence do you have that homosexual men are more promiscuous than heterosexual men"
Anecdotal evidence from living in NYC and Atlanta that is quite a bit more credible than your one-guy-citation.
Though you might want to check out Santa Monica Blvd. in your current home town.
^ Unclean water, industrial waste, agricultural waste, unsafe and expired medications, etc. are much more likely than to stipulate that homosexuals basically "fuck too much". Which, of course, is the usual homophobic notion.
(Hee-hee...)
^You're mixing apples with oranges, Mills. I didn't state that Gay men are infected with HIV because they tend to be promiscuous. I stated that they get infected because they put penises in each others' rectae which tends to cause these rectae to get damaged opening up a direct path to the blood stream.
As to promiscuity:
My statement as to promiscuity was just a statement about promiscuity in "western" society in response to your assertion that "western" society is somehow less promiscuous that the societies in Africa.
Personally I have nothing whatsoever against promiscuity. I don't think it is good or bad. It just is. There are times when I've practiced the same and times when I have not. And given that I've practiced promiscuity, there is nothing that would give me the right to judge male homosexual promiscuity either.
^ You are the epidemy of wisdom, Michael.
^That's a good one, Mills. Touche.
"Personally I have nothing whatsoever against promiscuity. I don't think it is good or bad. It just is. There are times when I've practiced the same and times when I have not. And given that I've practiced promiscuity, there is nothing that would give me the right to judge male homosexual promiscuity either. " MF
^^
What kind of politically correct Secular Oath of Allegiance to the Gay Lobby bulllll shiiiiit is that?
By the way, Mills. About the misspelling of epitome vs epidemy. As you know English is my second language. I didn't learn English until I was 15. I think I did pretty well, given the circumstances.
So, how's YOUR German? French? Spanish? Latin? Pig Latin? Anything?
^What "DV"? You never been promiscuous? And if you have, is it anyone's business except yours and the people involved? Is your possible promiscuity my business?
If it ain't, why would a gay person's promiscuity be yours? unless, of course you are one of the people involved?
What "DV"? You never been promiscuous? And if you have, is it anyone's business except yours and the people involved? Is your possible promiscuity my business? If it ain't, why would a gay person's promiscuity be yours? unless, of course you are one of the people involved?" MF
Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.
Pump your brakes "MF".
"Promiscuity"?
What the fuck is this ... high school?
Fucking too much will kill you just as quickly as eating too much.
Fucking the wrong people will kill you just as quickly as eating the wrong food.
It has nothing to do with write or wrong or judgment.
It's just acknowledgment of the obvious.
The rest of that shit you talking is homo pandering.
"DV"...
"Fucking too much will kill you just as quickly as eating too much."
Dang. Sexual intercourse is a vigorous physical activity. Doing a lot of it keeps you slim and trim. You didn't know that, "DV"?
You trying to tell me having "too much" sex with whoever your, "DV"'s, sexual partner is (or may be), is terminal? Your wife put that one over on ya? Wonder why...
So, tell me, is YOUR sex life (ahem, I mean death) any of MY business?
"So, tell me, is YOUR sex life (ahem, I mean death) any of MY business?"
Yes.
If I am asking that your tax dollars be allocated to "fight", "cure", "eradicate", "treat" or propagandize the consequences of my promiscuous sex.
If it is actually promiscuous dangerous sex that causes AIDS and not exclusively the "HIV" virus ... it is your business.
If you just want to pander to the Gay Lobby by pretending your declarations of "OKness" with homosexual sex makes you somehow "cool" or "evolved" that's your business too.
Laughing in your face is my business.
^Yes? Ok then. So tell me. Who have you been fucking last, if at all, when, where, and particularly how. Have you been sticking your dick up the person's or persons' ass? Did you lick their asshole? Did they stick something up your ass?
Make sure you answer in detail so that I can determine whether your sexual practices are dangerous to life and limb.
Anecdotal evidence from living in NYC and Atlanta that is quite a bit more credible than your one-guy-citation.
Fish... would you like to see more “anecdotal evidence” that sexual promiscuity is driving the AIDS crisis in Africa? If so, how much of it might suffice to persuade you?
Boston’s Rev. Eugene Rivers III, a Harvard-educated activist minister who has traveled extensively in Africa, said in 1999:
“Let me be very blunt: the heterosexual transmission of AIDS is, in Africa, a function of truly pathological promiscuity. ...
“There was something politically sensitive about criticizing Africans for their sexual behavior because of the concerns that some had that one might be starting down the slippery slope of racial stereotyping. ... We insist on the obvious: stereotypes or not, certain behaviors by African men, associated with certain types of cultural norms... are killing people.”
More, Michael?
^I don't consider Gene Rivers a credible source.
^ So you want to see more?
You may find all of Duesbergs Review articles on a PubMed search. I suggest Duesberg, P and HIV...don't forget to read the rebuttals.
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