Submariner said...
Just like the decision to carry birth to full-term, domestic turbulence is, up to a point, a private matter best left to the individuals directly involved to figure out. I don't know the details but if she called the police and then recanted that's on her. But you shouldn't be disturbed that special interests take this case and turn it into propaganda. You do the exact same thing with abortion.Denmark Vesey said ...
There is no such thing as "Domestic Violence". There is only violence. The categorization of violence is the political gerrymandering of Secular Ayatollahs.Abortion? Propaganda? Moi?
Nah.
You misunderstand my friend.
I don't have a position on abortion. I have an aggressive commitment to observable truth.
Some believe reference to the young brother in the image above as "a glob of cells" is Propaganda.
Some believe reference to the glob of cells in the image above as "a young brother" is Propaganda.
I believe the image speaks for itself. And what it speaks is not propaganda. It is the observable truth. I'm betting lil homie is life and his casual destruction is an affront to the soul. Call it what you want.
21 comments:
The Koran is correct and DV is just propagandizing..., why?
Okay. I'll abide by your "aggressive commitment to observable truth." The unavoidable problem for you is that humans don't emerge fully formed like Athena from the mind of Zeus. They develop along a continuum. There is no essential element that remains fixed.
Even if you trust in the fidelity of your senses, which is fallible, then even you must admit that the child you have today is very different from the one that was born or even existed last year.
Submariner said...
"Okay. I'll abide by your "aggressive commitment to observable truth." The unavoidable problem for you is that humans don't emerge fully formed like Athena from the mind of Zeus. They develop along a continuum. There is no essential element that remains fixed."
I agree. Humans don't emerge fully formed.
I'm not convinced most of them die fully formed.
Either way, isn't the destruction of the process, the destruction of the human?
Brother Sub, I invite you to answer your own question by just looking at the little cat in the image again. He speaks for himself. His humanity is self-evident.
Reason is overrated. Some shit you can just feel.
"Even if you trust in the fidelity of your senses, which is fallible, then even you must admit that the child you have today is very different from the one that was born or even existed last year."
True?
My child is VERY different today than he was last year. Taller. Read a bit better. But he is the SAME cat from the moment he was born. His swag has been on display since Day 1.
For all I know, that spirit, that swag has been there since Day 1 in the womb.
A human BEing is a process by definition and a race in progress.
Sub, look at lil homie in the picture again.
Reason is overrated. Some shit you can just feel.
Like some people "feel" the world is only 6000 years old?
Like some people "feel" that George Bush is a good man?
Like some people "feel" that you're genetically inferior because you can't score high enough on an IQ test?
Puh-leeze...., the PT Barnum appeals are designed to elicit what?
I'm not convinced most of them die fully formed.
Good! Glad to see you finally coming out in favor of retroactive abortions. Must've been why you bought those guns last year....,
"Like some people "feel" the world is only 6000 years old?" CNu
Like some people "reason" a child in the third trimester is a "glob of cells".
"Like some people "feel" that George Bush is a good man?" CNu
Like some people "reason" death and chaos in the middle east is a good thing.
"Like some people "feel" that you're genetically inferior because you can't score high enough on an IQ test?" CNu
Like some people "reason" it's OK to vacuum your brains out of your skull because you are still dependent upon your mother for sustenance.
Like some people "reason" it's OK to vacuum your brains out of your skull because you are still dependent upon your mother for sustenance.
Not only because of the dependency, which makes it the mother's exclusive choice, but also because at that stage there's no "you" in there.
You need to stop doing so much shallow, specious, and handwavy "feeling" - and instead start working your introspective faculty more rigorously and vigorously brah.
A human BEing is a process by definition and a race in progress.
Subjective conscious mind is an analog of what is called the real world. It is built up with a vocabulary or lexical field whose terms are all metaphors or analogs of behavior in the physical world. Its reality is of the same order as mathematics....
Like mathematics, it is an operator rather than a thing or repository....If consciousness is this invention of an analog world even as the world of mathematics parallels the world of quantities of things, what then can we say about its origin?
Consciousness comes after language!
The implications of such a position are extremely serious...,
[quote]There is no such thing as "Domestic Violence". There is only violence. [/quote]
There is no such thing as "Black On Black Crime and Homicide - there is only CRIME AND HOMICIDE.
In as much as people who are infected with "Non-White White Supremacy" choose to appraise the crime and murder done by Whites against Blacks as a greater threat to us..........the rampant CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS that take place WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY will continue to go unchallenged.
The main people devaluing the lives of Black people are those who are Black who operate with such inferiority.
[quote]Like some people "feel" that you're genetically inferior because you can't score high enough on an IQ test?[/quote]
Some of the same people seeking to dismiss the IQ test and or the "high stakes graduation tests" so that OPPORTUNITY can be afforded to more people......are also those who when and if the GOVERNMENT provides these graduates to them in the form of:
* Lawyers
* Doctors
* Engineers
and they suffer the effects of having such incompetence they will protest to that same government which agreed to water down the test, demanding that the government show the inherent WORTH of its downtrodden citizens by providing them with THE TOP RATED TALENT as an expression of this value.
Funny how some people switch depending on their position on HIGH STANDARDS depending on if they are a CONSUMER or a CANDIDATE.
But hey - the world would be boring if there were no Anarcho Capitalists left.
Ronald, has anyone ever bothered to tell you that backing into a conversation ass-first with your buttcheeks spread is not a good look?
I invite you to answer your own question by just looking at the little cat in the image again. He speaks for himself. His humanity is self-evident.
I see pictures like this in real time every week. I don't deny that the fetus in question has value and is real - to its mother and future kin. It just isn't what you say it is. Whatever this "cat" may do, it most definitely does not speak for itself.
And to whom is this humanity self-evident? If it were then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
So the materialist psuedo-scientist continues to invoke non-materials things like language, ensoulment, consciousness, being, etc., all the while pretending as though he can't give a material account (his scientific explanation) for a material phenomenon (beginning point of a new human being).
A unique human being begins his/her being before, after or at conception.
The lying materialist by default claims a unique human being does not begin at conception. He refers to such an event as a "glob of cells" or a new mutant parasite. The only known parasite to be voluntarily born by its host and representing the fundamental claim of evolution, i.e., reproduction and survival.
Therefore, the psuedo-scientist implicitly supports infanticide ("being" begins after conception) or he supports the egg and sperm are "alive" theory. You're "alive" before conception.
The second theory most closely aligns with Modern Evolutionary Theory and the idea of common descent. The problem for the psuedo-scientist is that if a unique human being begins before conception then we like the sperm and egg, are merely outlying remnants of the OOL (origin of life). Sloughing off a dead skin cell would be equalivent to this OOL sloughing us off like an abortion. It is this understanding... That we aren't anything unique or special... Rather, we are but appendages of a larger singular biota that leads one to a radical autonomy that boils down to nothing more than "might makes right!"
This is Nulan's romanticized version of "white supremacy."
Nulan is a radical autonomist who cares less when life begins. He refuses to answer a question he claims his material science should be able to answer all the while invoking non-material things to obsfucate on this fact.
In short, Nulan has virtually conceded that a unique human being has a non-material beginning that manifests materially. There is a concept for this idea of a material and non-material entity. It's called conception. It is where unique life begins and your material science says as much.
03 02 09
DV:
Thanks for showing this pic. Yes he is a baby alright and when I got my first ultrasound pic of my son at fourteen weeks, I was overjoyed. It is truly amazing to see them grow and change, like all humanity. We are all works in progress.
We have already established that Cnulan can only bandy about insults when challenged in this area. Despite disagreements with TDaddy in other areas, I agree with him in many ways.
I believe in the soul and that at conception, the soul is attached to the body. I have felt that way for a while now. No, at this point science doesn't have the tools to verify that fact, but it doesn't have the tools to dispute this fact either.
BTW: I like the quote by Haile Sellasi (pardon spelling pls). In the end, PEOPLE are more important to ideologies, which tend to bind us.
In the case of Cnulan, he is a slave to his secularist disdain for human life and can only insult people with whom he disagrees. This is sad because it takes away from discourse that could be enlightening.
My disdain is for stupidity and magical thinking Mahndisa.
Thus far, I've provided the only grounded, provable, and internally consistent argument about the nature of consciousness and human BEing on any of these now many threads. Namely that it's an epiphenomenon of language, consistent with John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
You've abandoned any pretense of getting at the root of this question by your superstitious insistence that a "soul" magically attaches itself at the moment of conception. At least and at last you've managed to specifically articulate the germ of your hopelessly warped belief.
Sadly for you, this germ is inconsistent with the results of easy introspection, and is clearly discernable as the product of contemporary political propaganda, emanating from a source of the most dubious provenance.
Heaven forbid you should consider examining all available evidence given the wild-assed guess you've made based on Francis Schaeffer's wickedly effective campaign of dominionist propaganda.
In the case of Cnulan, he is a slave to his secularist disdain for human life and can only insult people with whom he disagrees. This is sad because it takes away from discourse that could be enlightening.
It's not simply that I disagree with you. Since you started all this nearly a month ago, you haven't made a single contribution to anything remotely approaching "enlightening discourse" Mahndisa.
Instead, all you've done is obsess over your fragmentary and quite pitiful understanding of what I think and believe.
Your behavior with regard to this question is what has earned you your richly deserved consignment to the scrap heap of permanently cracked pots.
You really are a sad piece of work and I'm now quite certain that you and skippy the skinhead richly deserve the hell on earth you're soon bound to share with one another as California slides into oblivion.
03 02 09
Heheheh I figured you would respond to my statement Cnulan because you always must have the last word. Again you have shown your ass for the fool that you really are; a person who is so small that they must throw insults at those with whom they disagree. And when you are challenged on your baseless statements, the only thing you can do is cite arcana and push the burden of proof onto the person with whom you initiated the argument.
Here is something enlightening for you: You went to my blog and said that Nadya Suleman should have been sterilized after having her first welfare dependent child. Then you come here and advocate infanticide under the guise that a woman should have total right over her body. Which is it? Does the state have a right to sterilize women at its whimsy which you advocate, or should a woman have total control over her body? Your discourse is fragmentary and irrational and internally inconsistent.
Besides that you started all of this by calling a child a clump of cells. I freely admit that my belief that a soul attaches to a body at conception cannot be verified, nor can its converse. This is what people trained in science DO. They admit when they have enough information with which to base a conclusion and when they do not. I have never said that I am an authority on anything but given my experience in the area of motherhood and birth, I have more experience than you will ever have on this issue.
And you call me a crackpot, well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black. I believe that you are the crackpot and just as guilty of the so called Bibtards that you like to make fun of. Both of you are hopelessly tied to DOGMA whether secular or religious and both of you are prejudiced, ignorant dolts who preach against those who disagree with you.
Were we in another century, you would be a bigot. Get over yourself already.
And when you are challenged on your baseless statements, the only thing you can do is cite arcana and push the burden of proof onto the person with whom you initiated the argument.
She's got your number, Boo Boo.
Here is something enlightening for you: You went to my blog and said that Nadya Suleman should have been sterilized after having her first welfare dependent child. Then you come here and advocate infanticide under the guise that a woman should have total right over her body.
Nadya Suleman - the unfit person to whom the state will not now release her abominable brood and for whom others must pay?
You couldn't get a single commenter to back your ridiculous nonsense on what should befall that irresponsible lunatic and her misbegotten brood.
Because of her immoral and narcissistic behavior, fourteen children will now be made to suffer a lifetime of pain, neglect, abuse, and shame.
Your stuporstitious "principles" - are totally at odds with common sense and basic human decency.
A woman's right to choose ends precisely where her choices infringes on the rights of others to the commons. You can't and Suleman can't "choose" to obligate others.
OTOH - a woman's right to terminate an unwanted and unsupported dependent pre-human - entirely within the bounds of her person - which she owns - is indeed sacrosanct.
Which is it? Does the state have a right to sterilize women at its whimsy which you advocate, or should a woman have total control over her body? Your discourse is fragmentary and irrational and internally inconsistent.
Whimsy?
The state has the right to withdraw support for children that Suleman cannot herself support and that no one else should be obligated to support. Given her egregious and serially repeated violations of the rights of others and of the commons, she should have been sterilized to protect others including the children who her madness had thrust into a lifetime of suffering and neglect.
Not only are you superstitious Mahndisa, but you're clearly not above lying when it comes to pretending that you've either made or that you're making a rational argument in favor of humanity.
Your arguments have nothing whatsoever to do with humanity. The only thing you're arguing for is your ridiculous superstition at all costs, period.
She's got your number, Boo Boo.
STFU you smelly useless toad.
Why don't you just go and feebly spew another couple million knucklebabies all over your keyboard and a kleenex.
03 02 09
Not only are you superstitious Mahndisa, but you're clearly not above lying when it comes to pretending that you've either made or that you're making a rational argument in favor of humanity.
Yes yes yes preach to the sad persons like yourself who justify murder as a matter of course in daily life. Your statements once again haven't refuted anything I've said at all. The ONLY thing you have done is levy insults at me AND David Mills here. And to what end?
Now your irrational inconsistencies are even farther reaching than I thought. You invoke utilitarian ideology, ie. sterilize Nadya Suleman to protect her from herself? You are nothing but a eugenicist in disguise. I oft wondered why you debate with Big Don on your site. I see that you are really two sides of the same coin.
This is what bigots do:
1.Hold unverifiable assumptions and anyone who disagrees is characterized in a bad way e.g. bibtard, superstitous whatever else...
2.When challenged sufficiently, shift the burden of proof onto the person with whom you initiated the argument e.g. I say you are a Malthusian because you advocate state rights to sterilize people who you deem irresponsible. Your response is to levy insults against me then claim that I am putting words in your mouth and now must prove you are a Malthusian. But look buddy, you outed yourself as such.
3.Claim to have a monopoly on knowledge eg. Pico de la Mirandola said "of all the things one can know..." yeah like you know it all. That is the problem with you. Your narcissm and inability to relate to human emotions hampers you from admitting when you are incorrect and thus from learning from your mistakes.
I thought you were a scientist. The one thing that scientists DO is to admit when they are wrong because even mistakes can lead to progress. Apparently you didn't get that memo and hold onto your so called scientific beliefs as if they were the Bible.
4.Related to (3) above, you believe you know everything and if someone disagrees, then they don't know what you know and uninformed. Absolute arrogance of the worst kind.
Actually, the psych industry which you seem to have issues with due to enforcement of dopamine hegemonic bs and enforcement of neurotypicality would appreciate you right now. You are their number one spokesperson because you employ the self same tactics they use to convince a person that they are crazy.
You have called folks names and accused them of being stupid simply because they don't follow your paradigm. You call me a crackpot because I don't conform to what YOU deem is appropriate. Where are your anarcho libertarian sensibilities now? I always thought it was anathema to such a creed to try to enforce such bs.
Your statements once again haven't refuted anything I've said at all. The ONLY thing you have done is levy insults at me AND David Mills here. And to what end?
I disavowed and de-linked both of you idiotic peas-in-a-pod too!!!
Which part of "I don't want anything to do with you throwbacks" don't you understand?
You invoke utilitarian ideology, ie. sterilize Nadya Suleman to protect her from herself? You are nothing but a eugenicist in disguise.
and you're a liar out in the open.
Where have I ever once indicated even the slightest concern about the abomination that is Nadya Suleman?
I oft wondered why you debate with Big Don on your site.
I don't debate with Big Don, he performs a community service by volunteering as my poster child for the idiocy of racism.
Your narcissm and inability to relate to human emotions hampers you from admitting when you are incorrect and thus from learning from your mistakes.
I thought you were a scientist. The one thing that scientists DO is to admit when they are wrong
rotflmbao...,
tell me that you didn't just now write that "I'm wrong because I can't relate to YOUR emotions"?!?!?!?!!!!
That HAS to be one of the single funniest lines I've ever read in 25 years of online textual information interchange...,
{{{{I'm wrong because I can't relate to your emotions????}}}}
Related to (3) above, you believe you know everything and if someone disagrees, then they don't know what you know and uninformed. Absolute arrogance of the worst kind.
please stop Mahndisa, you.are.absolutely.slaying.me with the retarded stuff spilling out of you now.
{{{{if someone disagrees, then they don't know what you know}}}}
um..., absent some accounting of the facts and logic undergirding their opinion, and some of the facts and logic undergirding my opinion, I believe that's a fairly safe assumption.
See, conversation entails a comparison of facts and opinions.
If not, then it devolves into a protracted temper tantrum the likes of which you've demonstrated the past several weeks all because;
{{{{I'm wrong because I can't relate to your emotions}}}}
Actually, the psych industry which you seem to have issues with due to enforcement of dopamine hegemonic bs and enforcement of neurotypicality would appreciate you right now. You are their number one spokesperson because you employ the self same tactics they use to convince a person that they are crazy.
Yikes!!!
See Century of the Self;
Origin of the modern rise of the Neo-Con mindset, Fascism, and Capitalism - replaced simple 18th and 19th century brute force as the lynchpin of elite governance - good basic primer on the mechanisms by which dopaminergic cultural orthodoxy is created and maintained.
You have called folks names and accused them of being stupid simply because they don't follow your paradigm.
I've called stupid people stupid because they can't string together a reasonable presentation of facts and logic to produce a coherent argument in support of their opinions. Such people instead blurt out abject nonsense like this;
{{{{I'm wrong because I can't relate to your emotions}}}}
with the full expectation of being taken seriously instead of dismissed as ridiculous.
You call me a crackpot because I don't conform to what YOU deem is appropriate.
I call your pot cracked because it appears to have imploded around the unsubstantiated and unfalsifiable notion that a zygote equals a Human BEing - and that on that specific ridiculous assumption, you've constructed an infallible and non-negotiable world view that involves a fair amount of demonstrably ridiculous assumptions about what other folks should put up with, support, and do - simply because {{{{drumroll please}}}} of what your emotions tell you about the nature of the world.
Where are your anarcho libertarian sensibilities now? I always thought it was anathema to such a creed to try to enforce such bs.
Now you're down to parroting what the moronic groupie reject Ronald A. Barr writes to garner attention???
C'mon, try to maintain a little dignity.
In the meantime, expose yourself to what I know that you don't know and which actually informs my opinion.
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