In a stern Father's Day address, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., told an African-American congregation today that too many fathers -- including his own -- have failed their children. "They've abandoned their responsibilities," said Obama, the putative Democratic nominee for president. "They're acting like boys instead of men, and the foundations of our families have suffered because of it. You and I know this is true, but nowhere is it more true than in the African-American community."
Michael Fisher said...
As a black man who never for a minute abandoned his child and who is the son of a black man who never abandoned his child I gotta say this fuck a Barack for pandering to white racists.That guy is rapidly losing my respect.
Soteria said...
I'm sick of negroes acting like someone can't call out trifling behavior as trifling behavior...if the shoe fits wear it! And Mike F, if you have always been there for your kids...why would you say F*ck Barack!? Or is the GSWS responsible for this too?! GTFOOH!!
76 comments:
It's politics as usual. Sen. Obama found it necessary to satisfy a segment of voter at the expense of black men. His simplistic solution to the plight of black fathers in America are insulting to say the least. He should know better.
I find it quite interesting that the only time Sen.Obama had the chance to speak directly to black people, he use the opportunity to scold black men.
In a country where black men bare the highest burden of the unemployment and incarceration. It's obvious to me that may be he doesn't understand the historical assault on the black family. If you want to destroy a family attack the father!
Shame on you Sen. Obama. for calling black men "Boys".It's disheartening to hear Sen. Obama echo this stereotypical assault. I guess its easier to criticize a people than to help them. Sen. Obama as a black man I understand now that we don't share the same experience in America, and your chastening of black fathers as no value here.
I would say this speech was a personal one for him, after all his own father abandoned him.
1) 70% Black babies vs 30% White babies vs far less Muslim & Asian babies born to single mamas. See Obama's dad. Oh wait, what dad?
2) "has 60 years of aggressive feminist social engineering and radical secularism sabotaged the family all together."
Hell yes. It's a combo of feminism and r-gaming.
But calling out feminism in this country is like calling out Jews. It is instant political suicide. Ain't gonna happen (although it slowly is from the grassroots). And certainly not by a status-quo suit like Obama.
But you see Byrd .... "Black" in this case is an artificial group label.
For example, ask the question this way:
What percentage of ... secular white people ... are born out of wedlock?
or
What percentage of poor white families fall apart?
The operative common denominator of familial dysfunction is not blackness.
The reality is that long before the agents of war and destruction targeted Muslims ... black people were the recipients of their weapons of intentional chaos, cultural devastation and familial destruction.
The fact that many black families still thrive at all is testament to the superior nature of our kindred bonds.
"common denominator of familial dysfunction is not blackness"
No, r-gaming is not exclusive to any race/group. But, it is far more prevalent in some races than others.
I also agree that the JPM exacerbated this in the 60s across the board. By releasing people from artificial "moral" standards and cuckolding bastard babies with welfare...they enabled r-gaming behavior.
However, the fact that the daddyless baby rate is over double amongst Blacks shows that there's an additional racial factor involved here than mere Jewish social engineering.
As a black man who never for a minute abandoned his child and who is the son of a black man who never abandoned his child I gotta say this fuck a Barack for pandering to white racists.
That guy is rapidly losing my respect.
It speaks to every father around the world out who gives birth to a child.
I'm sick of negroes acting like someone can't call out trifling behavior as trifling behavior...if the shoe fits wear it! And Mike F, if you have always been there for your kids...why would you say F*ck Barack!? Or is the GSWS responsible for this too?! GTFOOH!!
Oh yah DV...and this Bullshit war on men and fathers has nothing to do with the fact that men are whipping out their dicks and sticking them in random women and getting mad when they get impregnated and 'lose their rights' ...whateva! Brothas it's real simple...don't f*ck random women and get married and stay married...90% of problem solved!
I used to think that Craig Nulan was a bit harsh for banning Byrdeye from Subrealism but now I see it was quite appropriate.
sub - If feminism was the ONLY causitive factor here - then you would see the same effect amongst various racial groups.
But, 70% vs 30% and far less - is just TOO FAR a gap to be explained by any one such factor alone. Since the stats vary so widely when simply sorted for race alone.
Clearly, there is another racially-correlated factor involved here.
And feminism doesn't even directly target Blacks, anyways. If anything, it looks past "hip-hop misogyny," male chauvinism and pimping there in deference to the Black race card. Public enemy #1 to feminists has been the White male "patriarchy." So, the "enemy of their enemy" becomes their useful friend and let off the hook as long as they serve their purpose.
And Cnulan banned me cuz he couldn't prove me wrong. So, he had to silence me. If my points were demonstrably wrong - he could have simply disproved them instead of censoring me. Censorship is generally (unless for anti-spamming/trolling) a despotic tactic used to silence the truth that cannot otherwise be suppressed. Free debate is the enemy of lies.
Bottomline is, even without feminism, daddylessness is still rooted deep in African culture. Just look at Africa. Look at Obama's dad, who had and abandoned kids everywhere. Was that due to feminism?
But yes, feminism and the removal of patriarchal codes of responsibility freed and enabled men and womyn of all races to shift to more r-game.
Oh yah DV...and this Bullshit war on men and fathers has nothing to do with the fact that men are whipping out their dicks and sticking them in random women and getting mad when they get impregnated and 'lose their rights' ...whateva! Brothas it's real simple...don't f*ck random women and get married and stay married...90% of problem solved!
Sista ... Soteria .... you know I luv ya.
But damn.
Couldn't just as easily read:
"women are whipping out their pussies and getting stuck by random men and getting mad when they get pregnant and 'lose their rights' ...whateva! Sistas it's real simple...don't f*ck random men and get married and stay married...90% of problem solved!"
?
?
?
Why is it fashionable to point the finger at "Black MEN" for a phenomenon that is neither exclusively black nor male?
Because like it or not...women have and always will be reflections of men in society. A man is supposed to have natural leadership of his family and therefore are the providers and protectors of the household. Once those providers and protectors abdicate their position, women become fair game to the users and exploiters.
Case in point, I went to a family gathering on Saturday with my dad's side of the family. Saw a bunch of cousins, aunts, and uncles that I haven't seen in awhile. My cousin's daughter (he passed away when she was 4 years old), brought her boyfriend by the gathering and my cousin's brother (her uncle) was there visiting from California. He sat old boy down and question him at length about his family, his schooling, his plans after high school, what his plans for marriage were....the boy and girl are 19!
I watched and smiled to myself thinking about it. All families need males to guide and protect. Because of my cousin's prescence this young boy knows he better be coming correct...and he was...he answered every question looking him in the eye, without nervousness and without hesitation.
And in response to your last question, it is not fashionable to finger black men. The reality is the reality. We are disproportionately affected by absentee fatherism...why do YOU think that is?
Soteria, I actually agree with you on that point. Men should be held to a higher standard. They should lead and protect.
And for the most part - THEY DO.
MEN DO.
Not males. Not boys. Not guys. Not bitches. Not punks. Not faggots. Not metrasexuals. Not dudes.
MEN DO.
Which is why I feel Mike Fisher on this one.
Men. Particularly "Black Men" are being labeled and held responsible for some shit, we aint got nothing to do with.
Another reason I feel Mike.
Barack knows better.
But just like he stood up in front of AIPAC and said what those evil muhguggas wanted to hear, he stood up in front of cameras and said what many other muhfuggas want to hear - The problems in black America are the fault of black men.
Soteria, do you peep the evil embedded in that meme?
Barack is perpetuating a myth - THAT FURTHER undercuts the ability and power of the very people we are holding responsible to fix the problem.
Barack didn't say anything Minister Farrakhan hasn't been saying for years.
He's only saying a fraction of it.
Minister Farrakhan empowers black men AND black women AND black families.
He takes a holistic approach to the issue. He is sincere.
I know Barack is running for president, and he can't really say anything that might be perceived to empower black men - but he aint gotta throw us under the bus.
Mike ... as is often the case ... is right.
And Cnulan banned me cuz he couldn't prove me wrong. So, he had to silence me. If my points were demonstrably wrong - he could have simply disproved them instead of censoring me.
I banned you and asked you to delink my blog because large quantities of shit conduces to maggots and flies.
My tolerance for either is exceptionally low.
While I can put up with swatting the occasional critter who flies in through the screen, the thought of negligently cultivating an easily avoidable infestation is simply unacceptable.
"women are whipping out their pussies and getting stuck by random men and getting mad when they get pregnant and 'lose their rights' ...whateva! Sistas it's real simple...don't f*ck random men and get married and stay married...90% of problem solved!"
Right, takes 2 to tango.
There's a lot of BC options out there. And there's also celibacy. And even abortions.
So, the woman still has the ultimate choice in if she wants a baby. Her body, her choice, right?
And she also has a choice in who she picks as the baby's daddy. A deadbeat bad boy...or a responsible provider.
But again, feminism was never about equality of RESPONSIBILITY. When shit goes tits up, somehow the man still gets stuck with all the blame.
Cuz feminists only wanted equal rights, but never equal reponsibilities.
And until leaders like Barack start placiug at least half the responsibility on WOMYN, ain't no shat ever going to change.
Farrakhan had a Million Man March. But what about a Million Womyn March to teach womyn more responsible behavior, as well?
Of course, that whole concept is entirely FOREIGN and TABOO in this country where grown womyn are all still perpetually pampered like little girls...
DV...
"but he aint gotta throw us under the bus."
Yes he does. It is a required part of the vetting rite. And yes, Soteria it has everything to do with white supremacy.
The key to the maintenance of white supremacy is the suppression of the black man. It is the black man who whites, especially white men, fear the most.
Have you ever heard of an unarmed individual white man facing off with a black man? (except in the movies). White men are cowards who rove in packs, in mobs in order to confront black men. Do you know of any white women that do not openly or secretly fantasize about getting it on with the darkest Mandingo they can find? Don't you know that the saying among white men is that they are not real men until they have fucked a black woman (that is, especially attract and retain the sexual favors of the fines black women - the darker the better - out there)? This is why this system seeks to turn black men into boys, bitches, punks, homosexuals, metrosexuals, and dudes.
There is no natural inclination for black men to behave in a destructive way. It is a thing that is taught, and the KEY to teaching the same is to separate black children, especially boys, from their fathers and have the mothers raise them alone. Which inculcates them with female values. Which causes them to become girls in male bodies. Which causes them to act against their nature.
Obama is neither stupid nor does he not know this. He's been around Trinity United Church long enough.
Barack purposefully, deliberately, attacked black men in order to ingratiate himself with white men.
Which makes him less of a man himself.
DV,
I totally disagree...
I think it is interesting that you take this perspective because you are usually one to speak on individual responsibility and accountability. So my question is this:
1) Who exactly to 'blame' for the fact that black 'males' leave their children in record numbers? I'm not talking about just not being with their babbys mama...I'm talking about full fledged not involved in their children's lives?
Is that the GSWS?
2) DV: Men. "Particularly "Black Men" are being labeled and held responsible for some shit, we aint got nothing to do with.
Since according to your comment above you as a black man don't have anything to do with it...why is he wrong for calling out the 'males' who do fall into that category?
Black America has got a serious case of collective victimization going to where it is wrong for a person to call our asses out for the wack shit that we do. As long as you can point your finger at someone else and say that they are responsible for the choices that you make, then as a person you are subconsciously releasing yourself from responsibility for your actions. As long as this outside entity is reponsible for your behavior no personal change can take place. Irresponsible men who do not take care of their children are trifling and should be called out as such.
DV: Barack is perpetuating a myth - THAT FURTHER undercuts the ability and power of the very people we are holding responsible to fix the problem.
Ummm...please explain this statement? What is exactly is the myth? That over half of black children grow up without their fathers? Seriously? You think that is a myth?
Who exactly is reponsible for black men (or excuse me males) not raising their children?
MF,
Give me a break...everything is not someone else's fault. There is no mystical poof of white man's pixie dust that appears every time a black man decides to not involve himself in his child's life.
From my own witness of seeing it upclose a lot of it falls into 1) I dont like my child's mother anymore so I am not gonna come around 2) I remarried and got a new family...now I'm raising her/our kids 3) I am having financial difficulties and it is emotionally easier for me to not be around then to feel guilty or bad because I cannot provide what I would like to financially. 4)My personal laughable favorite, 'I never wanted a baby and she trapped me'...ROTFLOL!*Thats a good one* 5) And apparently there is a new one to the list...the GSWS made me decide not to take responsibility for my actions and take care of and be there for my young innocent creation.
...Did I miss anything?
Soteria, you got a choice to make here. Either black folks, and black men in particular are innately inferior to men of other "races" who behave in a more responsible manner or they are not. If they are not, then the behavior is not due to any innate factor, but must comefrom outside.
Thus the question is, are black men on the average biologically inclined to act self-destructively?
Mike,
I think you are taking Barack's comments rather personally for some reason. He was speaking to a particular group - his group - our group -a black group about an issue that is affecting US. He didn't say that black men are more 'pre-disposed biologically' to leave their children...he said Black fathers are leaving their children...in record numbers...does the fact that other people are leaving their children too make this less a FACT AND AN ISSUE?
Soteria:
"1) Who exactly to 'blame' for the fact that black 'males' leave their children in record numbers? I'm not talking about just not being with their babbys mama...I'm talking about full fledged not involved in their children's lives? Is that the GSWS?"
ANSWER: Their black mothers who inadvertently hindered the development of BLACK BOYS into BLACK MEN.
Their is a DIRECT relationship between the proportion of single black mothers ... and the number of black sons ... who grow into single black males.
Which begs the question ...
Why were these mothers single in the first place?
Back to what I've I ... and Byrdeye ... have been illustrating for a long time:
It did not happen in a vacuum.
Black women, just like white women, bought into feminist propaganda that peaked in the 60's and 70's which proved to be a wedge between men and women.
The consequence was broken families and single mothers.
Men have been under attack for years. The goal of those who do not want a strong viable thinking effective black America was to separate black men from black women.
Yin - Yang = Ghettos, single mothers, broken families and Punk Ass Males who do not lead families.
My brothers CNu and Submariner are hard on Byrdeye, probably because they mistrust his motivation. I couldn't give less of a shit about his motivation if he is dealing in the truth.
Byrdeye courageously deals in a very dangerous, but important truth - the propaganda disguised as "feminism" and "liberalism" has devastated the black family more than the virus called "HIV".
Barack takes an easy way out. He stands up and says something crackas, feminists, lesbians and racists love to hear - "Black Men are the enemy."
DV,
At what point do we stop saying " the crackas, the feminists, the lesbians, and racists are to blame" and just look in the mirror and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS! I agree with a lot of what you have to say on feminism but this one is way off...
now the women are to blame because they are not 'raising men to be men' ....the blame game is old and tired...you sound like Al Sharpton...
Soteria...
"He didn't say that black men are more 'pre-disposed biologically' to leave their children..."
My question was to you, Soteria: Do you think that black males are biologically disposed to act in an irresponsible manner?
Of course not...
Soteria,
Slow down. Pump your brakes a little bit.
You seem quite eager to play the blame game - when the only people being blamed are 'black men'.
You seem awfully impatient with any examination of the problem that extends beyond black men to black women or society in general.
May I ask with all sincerity - Do you think your anger at a particular black man has clouded your judgment and affected your opinion of all black men? Just a little bit?
Because I will tell you straight up - I am about as black and about man as it gets - AND I AINT DONE SHIT TO NOBODY.
I am on the way to may sons graduation as we speak. I will be there with my WIFE and my other children. We will be strong and we will be beautiful - AND we will not be alone.
There will black men there with there with their beautiful black families and THEY AINT DONE SHIT TO NOBODY either.
So when you traffic in these broad categorical generalizations about BLACK MEN - you going to piss off BLACK MEN like me, like Mike Fisher, like my father, like Earl Woods, like CNu, and MILLIONS of other Black Men who have been doing what we do for thousands of years.
It Is Our Nature to be good fathers and good men.
Any behavior inconsistent with our nature or our not in our interests deserves examination beyond sloganeering like "Absenteeism".
Soteria. I would argue that without knowing the cause of an illness or aberration one is unlikely to cure the disease.
Soteria...
"Of course not..."
What then, do you attribute the cause of the behavior that black males engage in in disproportion to other, particularly white, segments of the population?
DV,
I have no black men I am mad at in that regard. I am not a baby mama...I grew up with my dad in my household. You seem to feel that me pointing out what is an obvious statement of truth(black men disproportionately being out of their childrens lives) is a blanket statement on you. You are not a dead beat, my dad was not a dead beat, and I know LOTS of black men who are not dead beats. That doesn't mean that the deadbeat doesn't exist...
I'm sorry for getting carried away, I just really get irritated by people who blame others for their circumstances. We can sit back and pontificate all day in sociological terms...but it doesn't change the situation. Black children need their black fathers PERIOD.
DV, I am not BLAMING black men. I am saying, black man rise up and be there for your child and I know that Barack was merely saying the same. So assume that it is Black women's fault that black men are not there for their children...now what? What are black men going to do about it? Sit back and say its the GSWS, Black women, feminism, gays, etc...or make the necessary changes to correct the situation.
Mike, I really can't tell you what the overall 'cause' is...I think the cause can be just as unique as any individual's circumstances are unique. However, I do feel that we as a society need to take accountability and get recommited to our children. As long as we are stuck in the blame game we have zero responsibility for our individual actions.
Soteria's list; From my own witness of seeing it upclose a lot of it falls into 1) I dont like my child's mother anymore so I am not gonna come around 2) I remarried and got a new family...now I'm raising her/our kids 3) I am having financial difficulties and it is emotionally easier for me to not be around then to feel guilty or bad because I cannot provide what I would like to financially. 4)My personal laughable favorite, 'I never wanted a baby and she trapped me'...ROTFLOL!*Thats a good one* 5) - was right on time up until item 5.
The elephant in the room that Baraka didn't address himself to was the extent to which Black men have been shut out of the U.S. economy due to systemic racism. So, any "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" lecture falls short precisely at that point where it fails to consider the historical and continuing fact that a hugely disproportionate % of Black men have neither boot, nor strap with which to pull themselves up. Any of the million plus put behind bars during the past 20 years start even three steps further back.
A serious political/economic number 5 on that list compounds the severity of number 3 on that list to levels that most folks durst not openly consider, as the avoidance of emotional pain is a VERY strong motivating factor.
That's also precisely the factor that reduced Baraka's talk to the level of pandering to racists rather than seeking to uplift some beaten down Americans. Baraka didn't really address himself to the historic and continuing economic ostracization of Black men, and in so doing, he pretty thoroughly played himself.
My man Dr. Lester K. Spence brings some of the science on the matter, for those thusly inclined...,
cnulan - But is poverty a symptom or a cause of absentee daddyism?
Or are both just 2 sides of the same r-gaming coin?
And what is the single mama rate when sorted by class (wealth) vs race? Which has a greater correlation and gaps?
Cnulan,
I was a Sociology major in college. I get it. Again, my thing is this, the mind and energy breeds off of whatever we choose to focus on - instead of focusing on whose to blame, why not TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OURSELVES AND OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS? As long as someone else is responsible for our condition, we are forever victims. Our survival as a people should not fall on the GSWS being torn down in order for us to regain control of our families. We need to regain control of our families so that we can tear down the GSWS!
Yin - Yang = Ghettos, single mothers, broken families and Punk Ass Males who do not lead families.
Byrdeye courageously deals in a very dangerous, but important truth - the propaganda disguised as "feminism" and "liberalism" has devastated the black family more than the virus called "HIV".
Well said, DV. BTW, you got a nice family and a pimp yacht. That's what happens when you don't follow all the BS neo-"Marx"ist propaganda.
Which also makes YOU dangerous. When you discard their memes and don't need their hand to feed you - they've lost control over you. :)
See, I like that Soteria.
That's the first time I heard you use that word "our".
Barack didn't. Barack said "black men".
Now believe, I'm all for men stepping up.
But the danger in focusing on just black men in this situation is that it implies black men and black women have separate interests and unique agendas. We need each other like up needs down.
Black MEN and black WOMEN must work TOGETHER on this one.
Black WOMEN have some issues they need to deal with as well.
That's the PINK elephant in this room EVERYONE (with the exception of MF and DV) seems afraid to address.
OK. We accept that black men need to "step up".
But what can BLACK WOMEN do to keep black families together and reduce the rate of single black parentage, dysfunction, pathology and incarceration within the black community?
Soteria, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I didn't read either Obama (or you in his amen chorus) proposing any socio-economic reorganization solutions.
That said - what - EXACTLY - were the two of you focusing on in making and celebrating his observations?
I ask this question in all earnestness, because I can discern a tendency toward social reorganization among young poor men that's been going on for a while now in response to economic resource deprivation.
DV put my mention of that reorganization as a link just the other day.
http://denmarkvesey.blogspot.com/2008/06/cnulan-said.html
Now before you reject that characterization out of hand, let me ask, are you intimately familiar with the circumstances pertaining in Japan during the Edo period?
Cause I find the behavioural parallels between gang culture and samurai culture - very striking in many regards....,
But what can BLACK WOMEN do to keep black families together and reduce the rate of single black parentage, dysfunction, pathology and incarceration within the black community?
Honestly? Not very much.
Mexicans appear to be on the correct evolutionarily stable vector in SoCal and in the American southwest. The surenos have damn near - if not already - achieved daimyo hierarchy and critical mass.
However, they enjoy some geographic, linguistic, and jurisdictional advantages that their smaller scale Black male analogs do not enjoy, and, they were not the object of intensive federal and local law enforcement for a couple of formatory decades the way in which Black male outlaw structures were.
IMOHO - it's up to Black men to do the requisite coalition and alliance building required to achieve a power-based critical mass...,
I think you all are being real rough on Barack for no reason whatsoever. The feeling that you cannot address a behavior pattern of one group, without pointing fingers and saying but what about them...is the childhood equivalent of 'I knowe you are but what am I"...
Black women have always kept the black family together, we never left our kids because of racist persecution, we didn't stop feeding and clothing them because we were mad at their father or couldn't find a decent paying job. We did/do what we have to...
Is it possible to take one moment and analyze what black men can do a bit differently to participate in helping keep the family together? Last I checked the majority of times the children are with the mom who is playing mom, dad, teacher, cook, housekeeper, employee/business owner...she is wearing a bunch of different hats and when we look up and ask can the father take little Timmy to the park and play football...suddenly the GSWS prohibits him from walking with his young son to the park to spend time with him? Come on guys...
Everything is not so deep...
DV, you are right we must work together on this. But how do you work together with someone who is not around?
Cnulan, call me crazy but I don't subscibe to such things as the word CAN'T. I don't feel that there is anything outside of myself that prevents me from doing what the heck I want to do. Because of this, I have a strong belief in personal responsibility and my actions are ordered accordingly. The actions that I take or don't take and the focus that I dedicate to my endeavors are what determines my success or failure. Likewise, I believe that Barack feels the same way in that Barack is saying look...you made them take responsibility for them. I don't know why we have to make this whole concept harder than it is. A person gets their self worth and self identity from their parents. A father who can model what manhood is to his son is the social reorganization solution that keeps the young man in school, out of gangs, and teaches him how to love and respect women. Likewise, women are responsible for modeling womanhood to her daughters to teach her how to respect herself, carry herself well, stay in school, achieve and be a loving and supporting wife or partner. The problem is...people are not learning how to be in relationships because it is not being modeled in the home and the cycle repeats itself. When does this change? It changes when individuals say enough is enough and decide to be the change that they want to see. I said it and I will say it again, as long as someone else is to blame for your condition it alleviates an individuals responsibility to do what needs to be done to affect change. Since I live my life from an internal reference point instead of from an external reference point - I decide the desired change and then
I manifest.
In answer to your question I do not know anything about Japan during the Edo period...and even after reading your post I still don't know what your point is...plese break it down...
Thankfully, DV broke it down for me up top.
I'm going to take it back a step further. The process of ostracizing Black males from the mainstream starts quite early in school.
Black girls are not mistreated the same way in schools that Black boys are - and that has to do as much as anything else - with the hyperfeminization of school staff and the simple personal, administrative and cultural inability of school personnel to deal with young Black males.
Again, there are social and economic forces at work - acting in concert to severely marginalize rather than mainstream young Black males.
As far as the other personal responsibility stuff goes, the rock bottom fact of the matter is that males have a substantially lower biological investment in offspring. No ovulation, no 9 months gestation, no maternal feeling or affinity. Bust a nut and step.
So, Soteria, going back to your list of reasons why Black males do not up their investment in offspring, there's no deeply engrained drive to do so, and a lot of painful disincentives to do so.
I'm not making excuses for the behaviour, I'm simply breaking it down for what I believe it to be, in ways which mostly coincide with what you have described.
No man worthy of the term MAN is prone to abandon his quest for status in the larger society. That's a Maslow's hierarchy of needs type drive. Since a significant fraction of poor Black men have been systematically ostracized and excluded from meeting these deep psychological needs within the mainstream, alternative systems in which these needs can be met have arisen.
Little if any status attaches to being a humble janitor and self-sacrificing father and husband. Many would argue that it's contrary to a male's inclusive fitness to play that role.
As a husband and father, I find great personal satisfaction in playing that role, but I've also satisfied most of my status and power-seeking needs in the larger social structure - so I'm not coming at it from a psychological deficit or disadvantaged position.
One last volley in this afternoon's piling on. The result of Barakas little admonishment.....,
Additionally why are you disrespecting Obama with this Barakas stuff?
Is there science behind that or just an immature exercise in name calling since you don't agree with the brother?
So since men have always had low level bonding with their kids...it seems strange that up until about 40 years ago the majority of black families (in post slavery America) had both a husband and wife in the household. Let's assume that feminism is all to blame and that is the reason for the erosion that we have experienced over the past 40 years, now what?
Do men just say hey it was feminism that drove me from not being in my child's life? Or are you asserting because they are men, kids are not a big deal to them to have regard or feelings for?
And regarding your assertion of how 'bad black males are treated in school', I revert to the fact that if there were fathers in the household to protect and watch over their sons, they could make sure that their kids are not susceptible to such things.
DV, you are always sharing with us the knowledge of self and confidence that you instill into your 'young bulls'.There are no teachers or administrators who could run that type of ish on your sons...why? Because you have taught them otherwise!
We can sit back and talk all day about the battle scars that we have as a people...all of the deferred dreams...the things we can't do...those that want to keep us down...or we can do like the hip hop hustlas have done. Create their own story...grind, believe, study, do you...Be whatever you want to be despite the odds... like President of the United States or a good father.
Soteria...
"So since men have always had low level bonding with their kids...it seems strange that up until about 40 years ago the majority of black families (in post slavery America) had both a husband and wife in the household. Let's assume that feminism is all to blame and that is the reason for the erosion that we have experienced over the past 40 years, now what?"
If feminism in and off itself were to blame:
Since all of the people living in America and abroad are exposed to feminism, then if follows all these people should be, on average, affected by feminist memes at an equal rate. However, black folks are affected at a disproportionate rate. Thus plain old "feminism" can not be the whole explanation.
What else could it be then, Soteria if, as you agree, the biologically determined mental acuity of black men is no less than that of other people?
No Soteria, you have me all wrong. *Baraka* is the highest possible complement I can pay the brother, seriously - what's more - it's the etymological root for his given name.
Let's assume that feminism is all to blame and that is the reason for the erosion that we have experienced over the past 40 years, now what?
Do men just say hey it was feminism that drove me from not being in my child's life? Or are you asserting because they are men, kids are not a big deal to them to have regard or feelings for?
That's not my assumption. Most young doods will simply say, go to planned parenthood and take care of that - to be quite honest about it. Most young doods have to be trained, groomed, and socialized to want to participate in the lives of their *seed*. Cause until it's all broken down for them at that level, not being involved in the gestation process, we have no investment in its outcome.
As for the rest, I haven't raised the spectre of feminism at all outside the context of clearly discernable *feminization* of the public school system.
And regarding your assertion of how 'bad black males are treated in school', I revert to the fact that if there were fathers in the household to protect and watch over their sons, they could make sure that their kids are not susceptible to such things.
Hell, when I was in school, there were a number of male teachers, corporal punishment was still widespread and fairly frequent, and there really weren't any meaningful breakdowns in the chain of respect, authority, and accountability in that system.
All of that dynamic has changed to where 85% of new teachers not only aren't expert in their subject matter, they have *education* degrees. WTF is an education degree if you're sposed to be teaching math or science or even english grammar.
My favorite teacher of all time was my 5th grade homeroom teacher. She was a retired geologist, half paralyzed by a stroke, and mean and ornery as hell. But if you toed her line, showed a genunine interest in the subject matters, she was more profound than the genie in the lamp. That lady took us all over the Kansas countryside on field trip after field trip.
If you got out of line, she would hollar at you and knock you upside the head. She wasn't afraid of any boy or girl and treated every single one like the filthy little animals we were until we proved ourselves otherwise and worthy of her exertions.
Back to the present day - I had to go to bat for my son at his school when he was in the 1st grade. Mind you, this is the highest performing public school in the state and within walking distance of our house.
The first grade was kind of functioning as a Black boy filter at that school - because of the outside agency they'd brought in to handle disciplinary measures. Said agency had a quota to meet, and a for-profit agenda centered on the medicalization of behavior issues, and the channeling of other even harder cases into boot camps. Moreover, it had carte blanche from the administration to subserve precisely that Black boy filtration function.
Long story short, it took a legal confrontation with them that resulted in the removal of senior school officials, the removal of that 3rd party agency. It took me nearly two and a half months and all the contacts at my disposal to put together the war operations centered on obviating that school's charter.
Frankly, not that many parents have the time, inclination, cussedness, preparation and resources to single-handedly remodel a school's administrative apparatus because the school has stepped to his 6 year old the wrong way.
Prior to that battle, the majority of parents had caved-in to that regime and it had been running that way for quite some time.
My parents were tremendous, always in my corner, but by no means did they ever have the wherewithal to go to war with a school administration the way I went to war with this one, and more importantly, they never had to.
Cnulan,
Thanks for sharing that...it was a good story and perfect example of the value of your presence in helping save your son from becoming another 'statistic'. Obama was saying the same thing - as fathers you can make the difference.
Soteria...
"Obama was saying the same thing - as fathers you can make the difference."
Obama said "Black fathers, fight white racist school structures"?
I'm late, but um can i just say to "shame on Obama", "attack on black fathers" rhetoric, FUCK THAT!
Many men simply choose to not be there because they can't get over themselves to sacrifice a little for their seed.
I think it's disrespectful, if not robbery, to all my male friends in the hood that work 2 and 3 jobs to support their kids, to say that the choice to be a deadbeat is anything other than a choice.
These guys don't have a college degree and some didn't have a father of their own. So what's that?
My daughter's father has an MBA and was raised by a senior exec of a US auto manufacturer and chooses not to be a father. Does he fall under the umbrella of "it's da man's fault?"
No. He doesn't. The difference between him and my guys back home is heart. A nigga with no heart will behave like a coward every time. It has absolutely nothing to do with the 'attack on black families'. Save that please.
My daughter's father has an MBA and was raised by a senior exec of a US auto manufacturer and chooses not to be a father. Does he fall under the umbrella of "it's da man's fault?"
Did you insist on marriage before giving him your V-card?
Did you insist on some type of fathering commitment before allowing him to knock you up?
Did you choose to use "failproof" BC?
Did you choose not to have an abortion?
If not, then whose choice/fault was it really?
kalena...
"Many [black?] men simply choose to..."
byrdeye...
"Did you insist on marriage..."
Given the disproportionality among black folks of this cowardly male behavior and this no-birth-control-using-having-sex with-a-black-male-coward female behavior, are black people on the average disproportionally dumber than white or other non-white people?
Kalena - Also, who chose to fuck a "cowardly nigga" vs one "with heart" to begin with?
MF - It shows Blacks on average have a greater evopsych predisposition for r-gaming.
I wouldn't say that behavior's necessarily a result of being dumber tho. It depends what one's life goals are. If it's to create favelas, then that would be the "smarter" thing to do. If it's to create more sophisticated societies, then that's probably a dumber way to achieve that.
byrdeye...
"It shows Blacks on average have a greater evopsych predisposition for r-gaming."
I see. And what do you attribute this evopsych approach among blacks to. Genetics or something else? If something else, what would that be?
MF - Have you ever been to Africa?
In many areas, there's still many big predators (like big cats) that you can't just walk around. You have to stay in cars and scope out the terrain before you run a few meters.
Point is, in that environment, it may be that Africans shortened their life cycles and increased breeding - because those who didn't reproduce early may not have survived to reproduce at all.
These behaviors - whether carried down by genes or inherited otherwise, may still be embedded in their descendants today. Although it may not serve them as well in a wholly different environment now - where a longer term investment strategy might allow bigger "pay-offs" (see DV's yacht and stable family) in the longterm.
And short term r-gaming leaves them hanging after they survive far longer than they had planned on.
Then again, maybe they still prefer it the short term r-game way, so who's to judge? Well, besides taxpayers who might be forced to subsidize their r-gaming.
Yeah, I've been to Africa. Though you are using a lot of "mays". As far as lions and all that is concerned, byrdeye, they've always had a lot more to fear from humans than the other way around.
So you are seriously suggesting that the reason Kalena's ex-beau behaves the way he did/does, is because 400 years ago some of his African ancestors (let's not forget that likely either of them have plenty of European ancestor's too) was afraid to be devoured by a lion or some such?
We both made a choice.
This post is about men choosing not to be fathers.
Ask DV, we've been through my part in the whole deal several times.
The fact remains, he's choosing not to live up to his part, i'm handling mine.
^ 400 years is not that long in evopsych time.
That's maybe only 20-30 generations. Compared to being naturally-selected and evolving for hundreds of thousands or more years in the relatively same environment.
Not to mention that the subpopulation extracted from Africa was not random - but from slave stock there. That was then subject to other multiple filtrations. So, these folks were already slaves in Africa before they were slaves in America.
This class of persons was thus probably more concerned with mere survival and fast breeding - than planning ahead for long lives with stable families and acquisition of property. Therefore, they were in a sprint to the finish line instead of methodically pacing themselves for marathon lives.
This strategy works good if you are going to die fast. Eject before crashing. But creates favelas if you exceed your own life expectancy and run short on resources you never planned on needing. It's like you burned rubber and all your gas up racing to a certain point fast...only to find out it was really twice as far away and now you're out of gas.
And this r-gaming meme could also then be inherited genetically or otherwise, if not "corrected" (assuming they want to) and adapted for new situations.
And on an individual level, there's prices to be paid for either instant (r) or delayed (K) gratification. A lot of this boils down to personal choices and discipline in life.
This post is about men choosing not to be fathers.
That's the problem.
NOWHERE is the responsibility for women CHOOSING their baby fathers even part of the debate.
WHY NOT???
Again, feminism has done a wonderful job of excusing and removing ALL responsibility from women today.
You have hood rats out there passing up K-game providers to pick the most r-game thugs to get knocked up by - and Obama says NOTHING about these choices???
I say, cry me a damn river. Let women reap what they chose to get sown by. It's not like they had no choice in the men they chose to fuck. Don't fuck a player and cry about it when he leaves you high and dry. SHAME on Obama for not giving WOMEN the responsibility they deserve!
Funny.
You read one line of my comment.
The difference is that you have a point to make, i have a life to live.
Peace.
byrdeye is fucking racist sexist bastard. But he's right. women are complaining about men they chose to sex and to have children with.
kalena you said he did not live up to his part of the bargain. what was that bargain? Did marriage ever factor into the deal or was that option never on the table?
thank you.
The difference is that you have a point to make, i have a life to live.
Lol, typical female cop-out.
Translation:
I tried to make several points.
Then I got called out on them.
But, I got nothing in defense...so...err
Now I'm leaving under the false pretense that I'm "too good" for this argument.
And I must put others down with a parting shot in order to preserve my own flagging self-esteem.
:)
Who's really more foolish tho? The fool...or she who chooses to fuck the fool?
"kalena you said he did not live up to his part of the bargain. what was that bargain? Did marriage ever factor into the deal or was that option never on the table?"
I said part. His part is to live up to the choices he's made which resulted in a child.
No, marriage was not on the table. I use my experience to help other women not make the same bad judgment call.
My bad call, however, does not excuse this man from being responsible for the results of his own [bad call]. It's a two way street. Period.
Byrd,
You don't know Kalena. Read her posts. Check her out. She aint nobody's fool.
She's the smart well educated mother of a beautiful young child.
She has reproduced. There is more to wealth than cash and Kalena is rich. Kalena will continue. What's wealthier than that?
Remember, there are very many "smart", "K-gamers" from industrialized nations, who make all of the "right" decisions but for whatever reason can't / won't reproduce - and when they die alone, in nursing institutions - the Kalena's of the world, surrounded by their grandchildren, will seem like geniuses.
Think about Byrd. The so-called K-Gamers can barely reproduce without test tubes.
Can you say "Ex.. tinc ... tion"?
Now you see why marriage evolved to protect both women and children. So, it would have prevented your predicament. Where, instead the man gets no nana unless he marries you first. And you would be much more selective to only fuck a man worthy of marriage and fatherhood.
But now you are just relying on his biological "obligation" to help raise his own seed. Which tends to be more absent in playa-stud type of men.
Anyhow, you can thank the Jewish feminists who were the ones to push HARD to eradicate marriage - which they spun as "White male patriarchs oppresing womyn." So, enjoy your independence & "liberation," ladies! Don't need no man holding you down no more! Hallelujah! :D
DV - If that's her choice, fine.
Don't whine and blame her baby daddy all for it then. Take ownership of your own choices. And she made plenty to have that baby...with no guarantees of him raising it.
Yes, life is full of trade-offs. Just don't whine or demand handouts when you fairly reap what you sow.
Same thing with K-gamers. If they die alone, then that's their choice too.
But, their hard-earned resources should not be redistributed to r-gamers out of guilt, either. It's all about choice, responsibility and reaping what you sow. Not what someone else sows.
Anyhow, single mamahood leads to welfare ghettos that try to leech off K-gamers. So, I don't think that's a "genius" path under most circumstances other than some Doomsday survivalist scenarios. But, to each their own..
Kalena
Thanks for breaking it down. If the topic were about sexual irresponsibility blame would equally lie on both parties (male and female). But because the focus is on parenting, credit must be given to the person who actually handles their responsibility (i.e. takes care of their offspring)... much praises to you for handling your business...
DV,
The problem nowadays is not reproducing, its reproducing too much. The world is so vastly overpoulated and becoming more so every day. Global warming, water shortages, destruction of ecosystems, high food prices and sky rocketing oil prices can all be traced back to too many people.
Is Classical One a part of the Illuminati? lol Wow.
Classical One,
Global Warming - Industrialization. Pumping nasty ass gases, chemicals and fumes into the atmosphere to produce, like 2 Ford Explorers.
Water Shortages - Do you know how much water is used each day to water the golf course's in California alone? The average golf course uses about 50% more water PER DAY than the average family of four uses PER YEAR. (about 315K gal per day versus 200K per year)
High Oil & Food Prices - Let me guess, supply vs demand? Wrong. But i won't answer this one, my boy Ahmadinejad can school you on the 'Food Shortage'.
The world is so vastly overpoulated and becoming more so every day. Global warming, water shortages, destruction of ecosystems, high food prices and sky rocketing oil prices can all be traced back to too many people.
Classical One, don't believe the hype.
Overpopulation, blah, blah, blah. There may be unnatural concentrations of human beings in fewer places (as a result of borders), there may be some countries with too many within their borders, but overpopulation?
When Russia, Japan, Australia, Canada are paying women to make babies because they are "underpopulated"?
Tell me - where is the dividing line between over and underpopulated?
Do you really think ecosystems would be less in danger if there were fewer people. When a developer cuts down the rain forest in Belize to lay out a golf course, what does that have to do "too many people"?
Perhaps we are not having a crisis of overpopulation as much as we are experiencing the natural consequences of gluttonous overconsumption. There is a big difference between the two.
Global warming, food prices, etc. have absolutely nothing to do with this alleged overpopulation. Don't get distracted. They have everything to do with political manipulation of resources to control the masses. They are political tools to keep the sheeple scared.
If you have ever read Maslow's theory of actualization, you will find that you must have lower order needs, such as shelter and food, satisfied before higher order needs such as community, peace, etc. can be addressed.
People who are terrified about food, etc. are easy to control. And never concern themselves with such high falutin' concepts as justice and civil rights. They are just happy with bread on the table and a roof over their heads.
Scared people are easy to control. Someone willing to build a big family is preparing to survive. Someone who opts out of family life is preparing to be at the State's mercy.
I actually agree with C1.
This planet has never supported 8 billion people (at least not in known times).
And certainly not 8 bill trying to live unsustainable lifestyles..
Not to mention the sheer loss of habitat and resources (freshwater, etc) from any sizable population.
Look, hunters know damn well how deer or any one species CAN overpopulate an ecosystem. Well, humans are no exception.
Yup, WE are the problem. And mo peeps = mo probs.
The planet is only so big, folks. It's a finite size and so a zero-sum game. This is not rocket science here. Just plain common sense.
K-gamers who choose not to breed are actually doing everyone else a favor - at their own expense. Unfortunately, it is precisely those altruistic types that this world could use more of - and not braindead breeders.
And if anyone here disagrees with that - feel free to move into a favela and report back on how you like living in a pure r-game there.
10 Billion humans could be fed a rich and nutritious vegetarian diet on current agricultural output and could all reside in a mega-city the size of Texas with 1000 square feet of living space each. (substantially more than the per capita space available in NYC.
Of course, this is not going to happen, because dopamine hegemony tied to the genetic drive to pursue and obtain status within hegemonic parameters is normative and shuts out any and all meaningful alternatives.
Behavioural dominance of the western status drive makes continuing enlargement and escalation of WW-III an inevitability...,
^ It's not just how tight a space you compact people in.
It's how much resources you're still using up globally.
NYC imports nearly everything from outside NY. Where do you think all that rainforest lumber is going to? Hardwood floors in SoHo. So, they are still a huge drain on the planet, regardless.
It's a simple equation of the total amount of energy and resources you're pulling out from the Earth...how much habitat you're taking up...and how much waste you're generating. And population is a driving factor in that.
Even the Sierra Club cannot deny this anymore:
Make the Population-Environment Connection
Our planet is now home to more than 6.6 billion people(1). The rate at which we consume and degrade natural resources jeopardizes the health of the planet and threatens the availability of clean water and air for generations to come. Currently, 1.1 billion people consume unclean water while 90-95% of all sewage and 70% of all industrial wastes are dumped untreated into surface waters (2). We have decreased the planet's forest cover by almost one-half and increased carbon dioxide emissions in the atmosphere by over 30% to reach the highest levels the planet has ever seen (3).
These harsh environmental realities are compounded by the demographic predictions that in the next fifty years the number of people on the planet will increase to over 9 billion people (4). Sierra Club recognizes that all of our environmental successes may be short-lived if they do not include efforts to address population growth. Ensuring access to voluntary family planning services, increasing women and girls' access to basic rights, including health care, education and economic opportunity, and curbing our consumption of natural resources, is necessary if we wish to achieve a more sustainable environmental future.
Also, whether everyone is getting 1000 sq ft each compacted together or spaced out - it still adds up to the same total.
Byrdeye sounds like a bitter angry man who objects to paying child support for children he helped create.
So anti women why?
Anonymous,
Thank you!
Anonymous,
Thank you!
Right, I'm "bitter and angry" because I object to the sexist feminist double standard in this country that places all blame on men and paints all women as victims?
Why did Obama only call out absentee dads...but not say one word to women about CHOOSING better fathers to begin with?
Is that biased judgment unfair and irresponsible? is that coddling of women only further enabling the problem? Should that make a conscientious person angry?
And should taxpayers forced to cuckold for bastard welfare babies be angry?
Or all those forced to deal with their vastly-elevated crime rates, etc?
Again, we have irrelevant insults used in a last-ditch attempt to discredit valid arguments.
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