He transcended Jordan years ago. He damn near won the title with Kwame Brown as his starting center. (A cat who can't even come off the bench in Memphis). Kobe has been the MVP the past 8 years running, regardless of whomever they happen to give the trophy. Name another player who would be chosen ahead of Bryant by any GM given his druthers.Denmark Vesey Intellectually Aggressive Statement of The Week
KP said ...
Jordan is a seminal event. Like Dr. J. For that reason alone I can't see how anyone can say kobe is/was/will be considered the best ever.As far as Wilt. Damm stats. He dominated based on size alone. If you play'd ewoks (sp?), i.e. little people, you'd dominate too.
Kobe should've won the MVP a few yrs back when they lost to Phx in game 7. That laker team sucked.
As far as this year, chris paul. Look at New Orleans roster then glance at their upcoming seed in the most competitive western conference race in the history of the game. F it, just name their starting five (off the top of your head, don't cheat) and tell me a #1 seed in the west makes ANY SENSE. Paul has dismantled the entire league and turned laughing stocks, TOTAL LAUGHERS, into mindboggling winners w/no blockbuster mid season trades. I'm sorry bruh, your boy might have some BS case based on body of work but not this year. Paul is clearly the mvp.
Richie said...
DV, I got your back. I'm the only one on here that saw Jordan live in his prime on a regular basis and Kobe live in his prime on a regular basis.Aint no doubt that Kobe is more, WAY MORE, skilled than MJ. NO DOUBT NO ARGUMENT. So much so that I won't even waste time justifying it.
As for MVP, it's tight. CP has some players though, Peja, David West is a beast, and Tyson Chandler (who is a 7 footer).
Bump all of that though, Tiger Woods is the best ever at anything of anyone ever. Now y'all chew on that!!!!!
27 comments:
Certainly the best player since Jordan. I think MJ was better on defense, but Kobe ain't no defensive slouch. Is Kobe better than Jordan overall? It's very close. I can't call it.
Kobe can be called better only if you choose to live in the tyranny and delusion of the present. Nike was a marginal player in the sneaker business before Jordan came along. Basketball itself was well behind baseball and football in the national spotlight. Spike Lee became a major figure because of his reference to Jordan in his first film. Jordan played in an era when the rules favored an aggressive defensive posture. He also went to a team that didn't have the tradition of achievement that the Lakers possess. That doesn't make Kobe Bryant any less remarkable but there is simply no reasonable standard or reference for comparison with Jordan.
Amen! Sub!
Wilton Norman "Wilt" Chamberlain (August 21, 1936–October 12, 1999), nicknamed Wilt the Stilt, The Big Dipper, and Chairman of the Boards, was an American professional National Basketball Association (NBA) basketball player for the Philadelphia/San Francisco Warriors, the Philadelphia 76ers and the Los Angeles Lakers; and also played for the Harlem Globetrotters. The 7 foot 1 inch Chamberlain, who weighed 250 lb as a rookie[1] before bulking up to 275 lb and eventually over 300 lb with the Lakers,[2] played the center position and is widely considered one of the greatest and most dominant players in the history of the NBA.
Chamberlain holds numerous official NBA all-time records, setting records in many scoring, rebounding and durability categories. Among others, he is the only player in NBA history to average more than 40 and 50 points in a season or score 100 points in a single NBA game. He also won seven scoring, nine field goal percentage, and eleven rebounding titles, and once even led the league in assists.[3] Although suffering a long string of professional losses,[4] Chamberlain had a successful career, winning two NBA titles, earning four regular-season Most Valuable Player awards, one NBA Finals MVP award, and being selected to 13 All-Star Games and ten All-NBA First and Second teams.[2][5] Chamberlain was subsequently enshrined in the Basketball Hall of Fame in 1978, elected into the NBA's 35th Anniversary Team of 1980, and chosen as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History of 1996.[5]
GUESS YOU HAVEN'T LIVED LONG ENOUGH
What Up Casper!
Wow.
Actually missed your crazy ass. How you been man?
(Wilt would get dunked on today. Ya'll cats need to incorporate a little Darwinism into your analysis. EVOLUCTION. Kobe is a derivative of Jordan. A Hybrid. 15 years from now my sons will be arguing that some cat named Christian Peters or Rasheed Mohammad is the best ever.)
I don't think Jordan is comparable. He's in a league by himself. If anybody can maybe compare it might be Lebron. You gotta give Kobe his props. He's one of the best ever. He's sick...but there was a mystique about Jordan that can't be defined by the # of MVPs....He was special at his prime.
There you have it. The consensus is set. We'll have to forgive DV this indiscretion. I've learned that his rhetorical flourishes don't necessarily coincide with his internal deliberations but are meant to spark thought.
But I am surprised by his reference to Darwinism. It's striking that an avowed spiritualist would rest his presumption on a mistaken interpretation of one of the most radical secularists. The error is also compounded by the Enlightenment inspired proposition of man's inexorable improvement.
Submariner said...
“There you have it. The consensus is set. We'll have to forgive DV this indiscretion.” Submariner
Haa Haaa … Au Contraire Mon Merveilleux Frere
“Consensus”. LOL. In case you haven’t noticed “group think” is not a valuable currency in this forum.
“I've learned that his rhetorical flourishes don't necessarily coincide with his internal deliberations but are meant to spark thought.”
Oh no no no no …
The “rhetorical flourishes” are but a hint, a taste, a sample, a peek at DV’s internal deliberations. Not designed to spark thought, but to break the chains of sentimentalism and herd like conformity that appear to compel otherwise intelligent men to cling to such dated notions as: ‘Michael Jordan was a better basketball player … yesterday … than Kobe Brant is today’.
Ya’ll cats remind me of my old uncles who swore Oscar “The Big O!” Robinson was better than Dr. J, Joe Louis would have “whupped Cassius Clay” and “Michael Jackson can’t dance like no James Brown!”
Brother Sub, I’m also surprised to see you making the rather plebian mistake of characterizing my acknowledgment of the Most High as mere “spirituality”. I assumed you were simply toying with Skip Sievert and his arrogantly ignorant secular proselytizing masquerading as historical revisionism.
He has yet to understand the belief system he calls science is nothing but a competing denomination in the family of faiths. Tell me the mother who hands her infant to a medical technician, employed by a corporation, to inject scientific holy water called “vaccines” into her child’s vein – is not acting upon faith.
Back to basketball …
Wilt Chamberlain played when opposing centers were 6’ 9”. Jordan came into the league when half the shooting guards were still sniffing cocaine. Gerald Wilkins, who was touted as the “Jordan Stopper” couldn’t even come off the bench today.
The game has changed. We’ve got 6’9” point guards and 7’ centers with handle. The money is greater, the nutrition is better, the technology has improved and the talent pool has expanded exponentially since Jordan did his thing 20 years ago.
Darwin … the High Priest of Secularism, did not invent evolution. He simply described a divine phenomenon.
As am I: Kobe Brant.
Punching holes DV:
#1 Name 1 starting 6'9" point guard? Think Magic was the first & last. Or a 7 footer with Nash handle?
#2 Yao Ming is 7'6" at least 6 inches taller and 75lbs heavier than the average center. Yet he has nowhere near the stats Wilt achieved. So being taller is not an automatic answer. In fact Bill Russell was 6'9" and would eat Wilt's lunch!
#3 What if a talent like Wilt could have the advantges of today's knowledge/technology like Kobe and Lebron. What would his numbers be then.
#4 There are obstacles that Kobe or Lebron don't have to face. Like being called ni@@er in some arenas openly nightly. Not being able to stay in many hotels in the south. Riding inferior transportation from city to city. Not having traveling trainers to kept you at peak performance. Not having advanced scouts to tell you the level of play and weaknesses of your next opponent...etc.
The Jackie Robinson's of the past had much more to think about socially and still perform their craft than Kobe or Lebron ever could imagine. So if your going to measure the man as the greatest talent in a sport on an all-time basis. You must factor in all the variables to obtain a true scientific result. Next your be telling me that Ali wasn't the greatest of all-time.
Nice dissection, Casper. And there you have it, DV. The need to quantify the unquantifiable is what has gotten you and others into trouble. Going back to my original premise, there is no reliable standard or need for comparison. Do you think Barack Obama is more gifted than Malcolm X? Hopefully, you and others will recognize that a comparison between the two is almost as absurd as your hypothetical match-up between Jordan and Kobe. True genius always acknowledges and builds upon its antecedents. It knows that placing a value on beauty immediately diminishes its worth.
Jordan is a seminal event. Like Dr. J. For that reason alone I can't see how anyone can say kobe is/was/will be considered the best ever.
As far as Wilt. Damm stats. He dominated based on size alone. If you play'd ewoks (sp?), i.e. little people, you'd dominate too.
Kobe should've won the MVP a few yrs back when they lost to Phx in game 7. That laker team sucked.
As far as this year, chris paul. Look at New Orleans roster then glance at their upcoming seed in the most competitive western conference race in the history of the game. F it, just name their starting five (off the top of your head, don't cheat) and tell me a #1 seed in the west makes ANY SENSE. Paul has dismantled the entire league and turned laughing stocks, TOTAL LAUGHERS, into mindboggling winners w/no blockbuster mid season trades. I'm sorry bruh, your boy might have some BS case based on body of work but not this year. Paul is clearly the mvp.
KP
KP
I agree about CP & KB... But size with out skill means nothing...
Manute Bol 7'7" 225
Gheorge Muresan 7'7" 303
Yao Ming 7'6" 310
Shawn Bradley 7'6" 275
Chuck Nevitt 7'5" 250
Slavko Vranes 7'5" 275
Mark Eaton 7'4" 290
Rik Smits 7'4" 265
Ralph Sampson 7'4" 235
Priest Lauderdale 7'4" 325
I could go on and on....
All taller/bigger than Wilt. And NOWHERE close to his numbers. Read Wilt's career stats again and remember he also played for the Harlem Globetrotters for some years as well.
KP
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/72727038.jpg
Was Wilt really a giant among men?
Casper - I agree about size w/out skill. Wilt was no bum and I wouldn't suggest that. He was a superior athlete ahead of his time for sure. To me he had an enormous advantage over everyone else in a league w/ a handful of guys over 6'9" and no 3 second rule. If he played in a league with as much parity in size as today or even 20yrs ago I'd have a different opinion.
I still don't understand how ppl yawn at Oscar Robertson's triple double average for an entire season and damm near his career.
KP
For better or worse, greatness in basketball, unlike baseball and to a lesser extent football, is defined almost solely in championships won. The NBA markets itself on a handful of individuals and is always looking for the next Jordan, Magic, or Bird.
Baseball makes it all about the stats and entry into the Hall of Fame. Major League Baseball is grounded in history. The announcers always refer to the remote past as if it were last season.
Basketball is stuck in the here and now. A kid coming up in baseball will invariably hear a reference to Mike Schmidt and Ty Cobb. In contrast, a youth playing basketball is told that he's the best ever.
I hear you Sub.
Determining "greatness" and "who's the best" can be problematic.
Especially for lesser intellects.
But I think we have the cognitive capacity to determine these things right here between us with our without official sanction.
If Submariner owned a magical basketball team, and could select as his first pick a 28 year old Michael Jordan or a 28 year old Kobe Bryant - whom would he select?
(Feel free to select a 28 year old Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Oscar Robinson etc...)
Be honest now.
How you not going to pick the Tiger Woods of basketball?
As a Knicks fan, I must painfully concede to His Airness. I'm not denigrating Kobe, but Jordan won with a lackluster supporting cast of Stacy King, Scott Williams, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr, and Toni Kukoc. The only nagging question for me is whether he could beat Hakeem Olajuwan and the Houston Rockets.
In my opinion, the point of departure for Jordan was his ability to maximize the capacity of his teammates. I seriously doubt that Pippen and Grant would've become legitimate All Stars on their own if they hadn't played alongside #23.
DV
How you not going to pick the Tiger Woods of basketball?
Tiger plays for himself and needs no one to become a champion... Kobe can only win a championship as a team. Kobe to date has not even won an MVP award. Maybe you want to ask the question several years from now DV but not even close now... Patience grasshopper.
By the way give me Magic, Hakeem or Duncan to start my team. I don't need a great scorer. I need a champion.
Casper ... Casper ... Casper
"Kobe to date has not even won an MVP award. "
That's the difference between me and you. You need David Stern to "award" a MVP trophy to determine FOR YOU whom is most valuable.
I determine value by demand.
Hype and Fox Sports commentary aside - not a mufuggin GM in the game doesn't choose Kobe Bryant first - every time.
He's the greatest player to ever slip on a pair of sneakers, the world has known - to date.
I guess you will come around after you hear some white boy say it on TV.
DV
I determine value by demand.
DV Paris Hilton, Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan are in high demand. Are they the greatest at what they do? Or are they drama queens like Kobe and his snitching on Shaq / Let me get caught fu%king a crazy ass snowflake in Denver days. DV if Kobe were on the Utah Jazz you would barely know he existed.
Jordan used to take Kobe to school every time they played each other (even in the all star game).
Ooooooh. That had to leave a mark. I forgot about that bitch move Kobe pulled in Denver. Yeah, DV, that was a submissive, facedown, bite hard on the pillow position that your boy assumed while he was on the plantation.
I don't know Sub.
Kobe got some pussy ... and beat it.
Got on his private jet and flew home.
What's more gangster than that?
His Jersey's sell more than anybody. Worldwide.
LOL. Even Kobe's "losses" ... are victories.
Ya'll need to stop listening to Jim Rome.
DV
His Jersey's sell more than anybody. Worldwide
Yeah and Hanna Montana sells out more arena dates than Kobe. WWE had 70,000 at there last smack down. If you are now moving the bar to suggest greatness is measured in Jersey sales than peep this. Don't even compare the Air Jordan brand to Kobe merchandise sales.
"DV if Kobe were on the Utah Jazz you would barely know he existed."
- Sub
This is totally absurd. Your hand shoulda went limp before you could finish typing that.
KP
DV, I got your back. I'm the only one on here that saw Jordan live in his prime on a regular basis and Kobe live in his prime on a regular basis.
Aint no doubt that Kobe is more, WAY MORE, skilled than MJ. NO DOUBT NO ARGUMENT. So much so that I won't even waste time justifying it.
As for MVP, it's tight. CP has some players though, Peja, David West is a beast, and Tyson Chandler (who is a 7 footer).
Bump all of that though, Tiger Woods is the best ever at anything of anyone ever. Now y'all chew on that!!!!!
"This is the first time since Shaq left that Kobe has elevated the play of the guys around him," said Lakers assistant Brian Shaw, a former teammate of both superstars. "His all-around game has been tremendous. He's still getting his points, but his rebounds are up, his assists are up, and his defense is really good."
LET A FORMER NBA PRO CALL IT THEN!
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