"So I can only conclude that you either really genuinely love these cats and want to convince these cats (the community that reads these blogs) that the fight is worth fighting and is essential to their progress and survival, or you don't really love these folks and you just have some savior complex that won't allow you to agree to disagree. Yes?"Michael Fisher said...
That's an interesting thought. I certainly have no love for DV becasue I think he is intellectually dishonest and manipulative. Nor do I believe that I will ever convince him. Nor have I the desire too.I do it because of the black people who read these blogs.
Folks like DV abound throughout the black community confusing the hell out of our youth in particular. So confronting them with rational logical arguments and having folks witness the outcome of these discussions may help black people to reduce the confusion.
If DV didn't exist he'd have to be invented. Plus look at what has been accomplished. DV has been talking, ranting, and raving about the Global System of White Supremacy for many weeks now.
The fact that he says it is a crock of bull it ain't important at all. He brought the concept to the table.
Now people have to think about it one way or the other. Once they start using logic... See?
Denmark Vesey said ...
LOL. That's cute Mike.Nah man. I've told you and your underlings before - I don't need white people enough to consider them racists.
I read a study while in school. They put a group of Rhesus Monkeys in a cage at birth, and placed the cage in the middle of the forest. The monkey's were fed periodically, and remained in the cage for a number of years. They raddled the cage, screamed and seemed to want to escape by wedging their bodies between the bars.
Suddenly one day, the door of the cage was thrown open. The monkeys were free to escape into the forest to join the other monkeys.
They remained where they were. For days. Not even when they were facing starvation did they venture beyond the doors of the cage. Eventually the researchers had to domesticate them.
Despite all the shit the monkeys had been talking. They were more comfortable in their captivity.
Mike Fisher and his crew are little Racist Monkeys, clinging to their comfort zone.
They resent free black men who laugh at them, huddled in the corner of a cage, with an open door.
Michael Fisher said...
Hmmm...A proven white racist who agrees with the "blackest man on the internet" who "courageously" hides behind an avatar depicting a life-long fighter against white supremacy - Harry Belafonte - and misappropriates the name of another great fighter against white supremacy - Denmark Vesey - and who worships light-skinned women, having practiced what he preached and produced at least one child who looks as far removed from himself, skin-tone-wise, as possible.
As I said, interesting, indeed.
Mike, this little girl is blacker than you will ever be and far more free.
If you truly love your little girl, the one you almost had with your "half-Sudanese-half-German, half Arab, half light-skinned, almost baby momma", you won't place the heavy shackles of mental slavery around her little ankles by teaching her to worship the God of Racism like her daddy.
65 comments:
LOL@"Recess" Monkeys.....,
LOL. Oops. Thanks CNu
Black folks who opposed racism as monkeys.
Interesting.
Good point D.V.
When one does not care what the hell anyone thinks, (and there is no reason one ought to) you take away all power from the others.
Thus the type of game playing many engage in.
There is no point in trying to make others jump through performance hoops.
The only Global system of any thing that is being played out is being played out on us all.
If one looks through it, one is not controlled by it.
"Black folks" as human shields.
Typical.
Michael Fisher said...
"Black folks who opposed racism as monkeys. Interesting."
Cowards pretending to "oppose" racism when they are in fact worshiping racism.
Black folks who oppose racism as cowards.
Interesting as well.
Michael Fisher said...
"Black folks who opposed racism as monkeys. Interesting."
Cowards pretending to "oppose" racism when they are in fact worshiping racism...D.V.
S.S. Priceless.
Hmmm...
A proven white racist who agrees with the "blackest man on the internet" who "courageously" hides behind an avatar depicting a life-long fighter against white supremacy - Harry Belafonte - and misappropriates the name of another great fighter against white supremacy - Denmark Vesey - and who worships light-skinned women, having practiced what he preached and produced at least one child who looks as far removed from himself, skin-tone-wise, as possible.
As I said, interesting, indeed.
Whens the last time some one called you a fucking idiot ?
Heres a new reference point fisher.
"Whens the last time some one called you a fucking idiot ?"
I get that all the time.
Hmmm, DV.
I see you took the bull by the horn and put my last comment on the front page...
Much respect.
"And who worships light-skinned women, having practiced what he preached and produced at least one child who looks as far removed from himself, skin-tone-wise, as possible."
Bingo.
Color-Struck.
As most black children cute child, though. If this is your daughter, I'm sure she comes after her mother rather than the blackest man in America.
Did you know that because of her light skin she has a higher chance of survival than black children with dark skin?
Color ain't skin deep, ya know.
The monkey thing is low.
But, tolerating the insulting language, what does "venturing beyond the doors of the cage" look like for you Vesey? How have you done this -- or how are you doing this?
And how has/is Fisher not?
Cause what I THINK Fisher seems to be doing is constantly saying let's move beyond the cage, but lets analyze our steps as, and/or before, we make them so that we don't escape one cage just to find ourselves in another one soonafter.
Achali, I seriously think you have the two characters to this story mixed up. Things that DV would typically argue, you strangely attribute to Fisher. I noticed this yesterday but thought I was missing something. I re-read. You must be dyslexic. Pun intended.
Beyond my comment to Achali, this exchange is waayyy too much about the color of this Black child's skin for my taste.
Denmark Vesey, a black man unafraid!
"Beyond my comment to Achali, this exchange is waayyy too much about the color of this Black child's skin"
Not really. It is about the psychological brain washing of black people that makes a sister like Kanye West's mother die for white standards of beauty, induces self-doubt and self-hatred into millions of dark-skinned people, and has life-shortening effects on them.
The notion "if you're white you're right, yellow, you're mellow, brown stay around, and black get back" is still very real and deadly.
For every light-skinned black child that is considered cute, there are ten dark-skinned children whom this system tells that they are ugly.
What do you say to those children, Robyn?
Acholi is correct,
What DV is saying is hat the cage doesn't exist while he exists solely within it's parameters.
Hr accepts the limits that the cage imposes upon him as the extent of the whole world.
Thus his colorism, his love for Gangsta Hip Hop, his limitation of the "evil ones" to "The Jews" and "The "Illuminati".
Those are things that the walls of the cage dictate. They are the brightly painted advertisements and illusions painted on the side of the cage to keep this black man confused.
The door to freedom lay in the destruction of this vicious and evil system.
But if you don't know that you are living in a cage, how are you gonna do it, or even want to?
DV chose to take the blue pill.
That's all.
What do I say to those children? Dont know yet. But what I DONT say to those children is anything that furthers the elementary notions re: skin color that you just recited. Or anything that furthers the notion that they are somehow less-than.
Although there are some elements of this discussion (the color/beauty discourse) where I agree with you, I dont share your opinion that DV is the one caged or limited in his thinking.
I think strong arguments can be made that you havent simply identified a potentially damaging phenomenon and lived life avoiding it. Instead, you've identified the phenomenon and lived life with it. See the difference? That can be problematic, IMO. Almost a self-fulfilling prophecy if you will.
I have a question, and feel free not to answer. But what skin tone is your daughter? If she's got "light" skin [this feels so stupid], do you teach her that she is better and life will treat her favorably? If she has darker skin, do you teach her that she's destined to fail? Just wondering the extent to which you give these ideas that you utter actual life.
"If she's got "light" skin [this feels so stupid], do you teach her that she is better and life will treat her favorably? If she has darker skin, do you teach her that she's destined to fail? Just wondering the extent to which you give these ideas that you utter actual life."
No, I teach her that white supremacy seeks to divide black people based on colorism so that they can not fight the system.
Because at the end of the day it is the people classified as white that, on the average, outlive all black people.
My pops telling me to be careful with my language when dealing with police, to carry my ID at all times, to be smart about how i act in public, is not reinforcing the idea of police brutality/harassment in my view. It is preparing me for it.
To be prepared is not the same as becoming a psychological victim.
That's like saying if Africa chooses to acquire nuclear weapons as a deterrence to nuclear weapons, they have become victim to the nuclear age.
Which is a bit too idealistic for me.
I guess this goes to MLK's philosophy of non-violence. I'm reading his autobio right now and I just can't swallow his early philosophy.
What is more realistic is giving Africa more credit than calling them "monkey"-see-monkey-dos and assuming that perhaps they are capable enough humans to be able to acquire a deterrent (i.e. prepare one's self to face a battle) and still not take on the total psychology of the violent opposition.
Bruce Lee is a perfect popular example of this capability.
I guess this is the crux of this disagreement.
There's this view that seems to be saying that if we just stop "worrying" so much about oppressive circumstances they'll wither away. And that by engaging in the language of the enemy (race) we become victims of the enemy (race priests).
But why are we underestimating our capabilities? Or the capabilities of our children for that matter?
Sheltering them is not a solution. Treating them as human beings able to grasp complex topics and able to know the science of war without becoming war mongers is a realistic expectation.
Because there's also the valid view I see Fisher trying to advance which is saying, if we don't "worry" about oppressive circumstances then they will destroy us.
The point I will concede to Vesey is that perhaps you are turned off my Fisher's desire/ability (depending if you are optimistic or pessimistic about someone like Fisher) to be "always-on".
And as I said in an earlier thread, I can understand why that is a turnoff.
But it doesn't call for a dismissal of Fisher does it?
To me both the idea of "not worrying" and the idea of "we must worry" are valid.
But in the wrong context the former can be misleading at best, at worst, deadly.
While the latter is at worst annoying and off-putting -- to a people living in a nation with so many more-pleasing distractions and romantic ideas of multi-cultural "diversity" and "tolerance".
No, I teach her that white supremacy seeks to divide black people based on colorism so that they can not fight the system.
fauxtianity challenges Black solidarity....,
pharmaceutical companies challenge Black solidarity.....,
The GOP challenges Black solidarity....,
Michael Fisher challenges Black solidarity......,
cnulan...
"Michael Fisher challenges Black solidarity......,"
First, Nulan, you wanna that I release your e-mails to me to the public?
Beyond that, no. I challenge...
"so-called 'Black Partisans' with their heads stuck in the sand, drawers down, ass up and at the ready for some good action from the good 'ole boys."
cnulan...
"That white supremacy is an extreme syndrome within the more encompassing pathology of dopamine hegemony…, at the end of the day, it’s dopaminergic culture and the dominance of dopaminergic psychology that must be overturned, or else we will all perish" and "that white racism is the result of the cognitive error of identifying ethnic groups as separate species.”
Pull your drawers up, Nulan. And define...
(1) White
(2) Supremacy
(3) White Supremacy
(4) Syndrome
(5) Pathology
(6) Dopamine
(7) Dopamine Hegemony
(8) dopamineric
(9) Hegemony
(10) Culture
(11) Dominance
(12) Psychology
(13) Ethnic
(14) Group
(15) Species
(16) Race
(17) Racism
First, Nulan, you wanna that I release your e-mails to me to the public?
Do whatever you feel necessary to shore up your ego Michael. There's no shame in my game.
While you're at it, be sure you establish a comprehensive daily digital/ electronic self-checking routine.
I've been told that it's hard as hell to reconstitute oneself on systems of record once these get compromised and dumped onto the undernet. Since you'll be finding out all about that, you can serve as a resource and let everybody else know firsthand what it's like.
Matter of fact, it'll give you something useful to write about.
Say when MF....,
Inanimate energy slaves
Because of our various energy production and delivery systems, and the myriad designs which convert that power into desired functions, each person now has about 10 inanimate energy-slaves working on their behalf 24 hours per day, 7 days a week. Unlike human slaves, such energy slaves don't suffer, tire, complain, or run away.
It's no surprise that slavery, in the 'developed world', disappeared shortly after the release of coal power at the beginning of the industrial revolution; Humans require a lot of overhead. When their output (~1/3rd of a horsepower; about 250 watts) gets more expensive than the inputs, everyone gets liberated so they'll pay their own overhead.
Price System logic.
Those in the US have approximately 60 inanimate energy-slaves working round-the-clock on each person's behalf. The level of development of a region is proportional to the amount of energy consumed per capita, for a simple reason; people consume energy to perform desired functions. More energy = more desires being fulfilled.
Slavery and racism are two different things.
In the future we WILL be a mutt based society.
That is good.
There is no basis or logic to racism.
In the past people have been bound by cabals of belief systems.
In the future, if we are lucky, our mutt society makes for a hybrid society of creativity and beauty.
CAT FIGHT!!!
Solutions please...We need to fight the racism that exists amongst our own people before we can begin to fight the battle globally. Case and point, DV and MF, the beautiful child is watching(the light and the dark)...
This is the same shit that been dividing us since we got to this country!
"Say when MF....,"
Say FBI, Nulan.
cnulan,
I could actually benefit from you defining some of those terms.
your definition comes across as very very succinct.
but you are essentially sounding like an apologist and calling white supremacy a "cognitive error", in other words, an accident. when historically it seems to me that you have to know exactly what and why you are doing what you are doing when you create such a thing as "whiteness" in order to separate yourself from the rest of humanity, in order to justify your oppression of them.
like i said the definition seems airtight, only, how can you KNOW this? it doesn't seem like you can prove this, rather it seems to be a subjective viewpoint.
where else in history has "dopaminergic culture and psychology", specifically, brought about a race based system of systematic oppression? i guess india and their caste system comes to mind, but if that is your only other example, can you explain how that is "dopaminergic culture and psychology"... or if you have another historical example i'd like to know that/those as well.
thanks
dv, can you tell me who that picture is of that you are using next to your name in this post? dude looks just like my cousin Moses.
I could actually benefit from you defining some of those terms.
What exactly would your takeaway be Achali, given the projective leap you've already taken here?
but you are essentially sounding like an apologist and calling white supremacy a "cognitive error", in other words, an accident.
Taking MF's word for it, and without the benefit of any evidence whatsoever, you've adopted an apologetic stance of your own without consideration of the underlying evidence and arguments influencing my belief. If you want to know more about my perspective in general, then visit my blog. There's plenty enough there to inform you concerning my pov.
Race bias depends for its forcefulness and durability on the exploitation of an existing instinct that has/had adaptive/selective value. It works as a culturally and psychologically persistant memeplex because it exploits a vulnerability in how humans perceive the world - THATS what the cognitive error description is about.
Since I don't make any claims about the GSWS, you'll need to take that up with folks hell-bent on making that case. What I know for certain is that in the aftermath of Bacon's Rebellion in the late 1600's in the Virginia colony - a new and distinctive governance tactic focused on race was devised and implemented - that tactic has persisted and proliferated across the anglosphere in various manners, forms, and fashions and with varying degrees of intensity.
Bacon's Rebellion demonstrated that poor whites and poor blacks could be united in a cause. This was a great fear of the ruling class -- what would prevent the poor from uniting to fight them? This fear hastened the transition to racial slavery.
As for the rest, I've spent a fair amount of time in India and would suggest to you that it's neither historically, culturally, or psychologically valid or useful to look to ancient India as a model for what has transpired over the past 340 years in the United States. There's probably more to be gleaned from the history of Muslim and British dominated India as influencers of the modern systems of oppression still very much in effect in that ancient civilization.
Methods of design
The inventing of energy-converting technology took a sudden upward spike as a result of animals gathering information, instead of only DNA-expression to try out new ways of performing functions. Sensation and perception allowed response to and modification of the environment.
Humans caused another upward spike when they started communicating, making possible the performance of functions that were impossible with only one person. Industry, as opposed to merely craft, had begun.
Human imagination has only sped up the process since that day, and that faculty is applied as much to power-saving functions like levers and washing machines, as to effort-saving equipment like currency or robots, effort-enhancing methods like Yoga or double-entry bookkeeping, or into precision-increasing ideas like telescopes and micrometers.
This whole chat is being framed wrong.
There is NO basis for the concept of race other than the human race.
We are one. We need no slaves as we have mastered mechanical energy.
We do not need to demean one another with witchcraft based concepts of dominate and lesser groups.
If we survive, we will become a Mutt society. A Mutt society is the culmination of linking the various mutations of humans into something bigger, stronger and smarter.
In other words the future looks good if we can get rid of our Price System, get an equatable system, and jettison the past bullshit that is now referred to as our Political system.
Our happy horse shit political system is rooted in the original devil worship of the power mongering Babylonian elite.
Thats the origin. It is based on human slavery. We do NOT need to use that method any more.
cnulan,
i'm not drinking anyone's koolaid. i'm being honest with my current view. if that resembles Fishers more than yours so be it. but that's not my point or worry. what is my point is to try and understand this.
"cognitive error" does sound apologist to me, sorry. and surely you can respect that it might sound that way to many black folks who are emotionally tied to this issue. imagine the backlash in the jewish community were you to say hitler's was a "cognitive error".
so please tolerate and understand that perspective regardless of if you think it a subjective or illogical one.
all of that to say i think i (and others) can still take away something positive from an explanation from you of some of those terms that Fisher was asking for definition for.
this statement is very hard to follow:
"Race bias depends for its forcefulness and durability on the exploitation of an existing instinct that has/had adaptive/selective value. It works as a culturally and psychologically persistant memeplex because it exploits a vulnerability in how humans perceive the world"
what is the "existing instinct that has/had adaptive/selective value" here? and what's a "memeplex"?
i have to admit that using bacon's rebellion as a starting point or even point of reference is hard for me to understand.
bacon himself was bent on attacking even friendly natives. how can we use him as an example for race solidarity?
and that article you referenced mentions that even the governor was promising slaves freedom to join his cause. so do we call that black/white solidarity too?
i call it black people doing what they got to do to get free. just like blacks fighting on the British side of the independence war or fighting on the side of the confederacy during the civil war -- more power to them. from DuBois "Black Reconstruction" I got that during the civil war for the most part black folks were patiently waiting to try and determine which side would win the war to decide who they were going to be "loyal" to, since both sides eventually promised freedom for many of those who would fight on their side. for the large majority it was about our self-interest in freedom not solidarity with the white, the poor, the rich, the British, the colonialists, the south, or the north. right?
and surely you can respect that it might sound that way to many black folks who are emotionally tied to this issue. imagine the backlash in the jewish community were you to say hitler's was a "cognitive error".
who's responsible for overcoming another's excessive and unproductive emotional identification Achali? Hitler was an instrument through which Krupp and other German elites exploited MASSIVE vulnerabilities in the collective German psyche. Hitler was no architect, merely an expendable exigency who served the required strategic purpose of others who'd laid plans going back to decades prior to his advent on the public scene.
so please tolerate and understand that perspective regardless of if you think it a subjective or illogical one.
No. you live in an open source world in which you have ready access to everything required to free your own mind - assuming your motivation is strong enough - of what possible benefit could you be if you are unable to accomplish this baseline objective by your own devices?
what is the "existing instinct that has/had adaptive/selective value" here? and what's a "memeplex"?
Read the papers I linked and use google.
i have to admit that using bacon's rebellion as a starting point or even point of reference is hard for me to understand.
Drill down a bit harder and deeper into the correlative and causal repercussions of Bacon's Rebellion - it's all there - but you have to do the work.
for the large majority it was about our self-interest in freedom not solidarity with the white, the poor, the rich, the British, the colonialists, the south, or the north. right?
this is not a salvatory undertaking. It's a revelatory undertaking for those endeavoring to understand and act with maximum freedom of agency. always has been, always will be.
Ain`t no such thing as race or slavery no more. Stop with the chicken scratching around these dead issues.
skip,
no one's paying you any mind. maybe you should just stop reading.
cnulan,
wow. you're a pretty dismissive dude. you seem to be here less to actually impart understanding than to argue. fisher might be arguing with you at times, i'm merely trying to understand. that's the point of your theory right? to get people to understand it? even marx said "philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it." your philosophy is useless to me unless you can help someone like me actually understand it. otherwise i think you're destined to be forever frustrated with everyday black folk like me. i think this can lead to black folk hating their own people if we're so far in the idea clouds that we can't relate our ideas to the people for whom we claim to be trying to talk to (despite a philisophical claim to loving them).
but to continue the digging:
so it was Krupp and these other German elites that made a "cognitive error" in bringing about the holocaust? i guess my only point is that it'd be like you calling the holocaust a cognitive error, whoever it was made by. and i was asking for understanding there as to why someone bumping into your views on the internet might be taken aback and want to challenge you on it... so why be surprised by my view? or why think that i'm being an apologist for fisher? i also thought that if you're trying to impart understanding you might be concerned with how what you say and how you say it turns people off... or initially against you. but whatever, maybe you don't approach conversation that way or consider it that important... anyhow it's not the main point.
so i'm still trying to get at what you would say is the motivation. using your theory what are you saying motivated "Krupp and other German elites"? (for example) -- their dopamine imbalances? and if so, what caused their dopamine imbalances?
in your race-bias comment earlier, you're saying that race depends on exploiting an existing instinct that has selective value, I'm trying to figure out what you're saying that instinct is/was? I can see how an instinctive perception like skin color would motivate calling someone a name that symbolizes their skin color for the sake of identification/forensics like you said before.
But it's the behavior that gets you "classified" as some"thing" else. And even with behavioral classifications as a universal given for humanity in the case of "acting like a baby, etc", what other points in history -- prior to africans being categorized as sub-human savages -- are there where humans classified other humans as another species along with a philosophy/religious belief that stated that man has dominion over all other species?
that seems to be what's at the heart of what black/indigenous folk refer to as "whiteness".
With Bacon's rebellion are you positioning this 17th century racial slave law as the origin of the relationship between the systematic and the racial? thus when the law is gone the relationship is gone?
Because I see the origin at the event of Europeans (with a philosophy/religious belief that states "man" -- whatever that word might be defined as by those claiming it -- has dominion over all other species) encountering the African/indigenous who were then categorized as sub-human savages/another species. That prior philosophy/religious belief makes the encounter with humans who are categorized as "savages" due to their perceived behavior a systematic event, no? It might not be a government law but wasn't it a philosophy/religious belief that governed European life?
Are you saying that that philosophy/religious belief is the result of dopamine imbalance?
on bacon's rebellion again:
you paint it as poor black/white solidarity that was thwarted by the elite. but the pbs article talks about how the intentions behind Bacon's rebellion were racist in the first place -- he saw the indians as savages to be destroyed. are you saying he hated the indians but liked the africans? or is it more likely that he was merely using the black savages, who were less of a threat to him than the indian savages, for his own self-interest?
are you saying that the fact that there was no racial character to colonial slavery law up until this point (what year is this by the way? do you have a link to this law late 1600s law?) means that race was not a factor in slavery until the law was put on the books?
i can see the law as a strategic move used to divide and conquer. but that isn't proof that the solidarity was based on race unity. because as i said, Bacon could have easily been simply being strategic himself.
can you prove that poor whites didn't adhered to the same philosophical/religious "law" that elite white did?
achali said...
skip,
no one's paying you any mind. maybe you should just stop reading.
Phuck you asshole.
lol. skipper, u are hilarious. this'll be the last time i respond to you. i just wanted to point out once again that no one is paying you much attention.
Really, Thank you your majesty. Oh and fuck you and your grandma.
Any questions.
Like I care what you think asshole.
cnulan,
wow. you're a pretty dismissive dude.
Entirely. I should be otherwise because........?
i'm merely trying to understand. that's the point of your theory right? to get people to understand it?
Achali, do you think that the "pioneer" participants in wagontrain charters "understood" what they were signing onto? Do you think that every random denizen of these estados unidos either understood or volunteered and payed into the undertaking codified as a "wagontrain charter?"
You're not useful to yourself unless you want something different. Folks who have to be induced to "want" are already a lost cause....,
your philosophy is useless to me unless you can help someone like me actually understand it.
which presupposes that you're useful to me, right? what special thing are you capable of doing that I can't already do for myself?
otherwise i think you're destined to be forever frustrated with everyday black folk like me.
rotflmbao..., I have an ironclad policy of not second guessing Black folks. How I'm a get frustrated when I don't have any expectations? OTOH - I have an equally ironclad policy of preferential collaboration with Black folks. I have unbounded faith in the power of consciousness "knowing together". Why not implement that faith locally?
But the thing of it is, I expect everybody privy to the undertaking to bring something organic and vital to the consciousness party. If they don't then they gotta go, gotta go, gotta go...., nothing worse than a rotting phukking duppy stinking up the consciousness party, no?
so it was Krupp and these other German elites that made a "cognitive error" in bringing about the holocaust?
Nope. Krupp, Daimler, et all..., exploited a cognitive error in the general German populace in order to give rise to the collective sentiment capable of supporting implementation of the holocaust.
i also thought that if you're trying to impart understanding you might be concerned with how what you say and how you say it turns people off... or initially against you. but whatever, maybe you don't approach conversation that way or consider it that important...
No. I genuinely don't care about that at all. You either get it, or you don't.
I'm trying to figure out what you're saying that instinct is/was?
still didn't read those linked papers, did you? you realize we're fast approaching being through here Achali?
Are you saying that that philosophy/religious belief is the result of dopamine imbalance?
google dopamine hypoism, or maybe just hypoism, or read this.
can you prove that poor whites didn't adhered to the same philosophical/religious "law" that elite white did?
Burden of proof is not on me Achali. I haven't asserted a GSWS. I'm interested in empirically testable cognitive mechanisms by which governance is sustained.
Surely you don't imagine given the population demographics of the U.S. alone, that governance of Black folks comprises the lion's share of the elite governance challenge? Do you?
Good stuff CNu ...
"Burden of proof is not on me Achali. I haven't asserted a GSWS. I'm interested in empirically testable cognitive mechanisms by which governance is sustained."
That's going to be a challenge.
Ultimately the mechanisms of governance are neither testable nor cognitive.
Come on guys.
This is a dead letter conversation.
My stuff is cool and yours sucks.
The race shit is over.
Understand ?
Its a non starter.
Welcome to Muttsville.
That is the future.
Ultimately the mechanisms of governance are neither testable nor cognitive.
I couldn't disagree with you more strenuously DV...,
LOL.
I feel you Skip.
This race shit is a step backwards.
CNu -
Read the piece in The Oregonian
Yes. The entire nation is on some type of narcotic.
Again, I submit, that ultimately "governance" is not a mechanical process. It is not a chemical process. Governance is an affair of the spirit.
Narcotics, or dopamine manipulation, cause spiritual narcosis, making people easier to control (govern).
It is no coincidence that the explosion in drug addiction coincided with a general attack on religion.
Nulan...
"Burden of proof is not on me Achali. I haven't asserted a GSWS. I'm interested in empirically testable cognitive mechanisms by which governance is sustained."
Seems to me that Achali wasn't asserting anything about the SR/WS in his recent comments, but that he is asking about this:
"That white supremacy is an extreme syndrome within the more encompassing pathology of dopamine hegemony…, at the end of the day, it’s dopaminergic culture and the dominance of dopaminergic psychology that must be overturned, or else we will all perish" and "that white racism is the result of the cognitive error of identifying ethnic groups as separate species.”
It would be logical to posit that the burden of proof for these statements lie with its author.
Nulan...
"Drill down a bit harder and deeper into the correlative and causal repercussions of Bacon's Rebellion - it's all there - but you have to do the work."
It would seem equally logical that the author of a hypothesis would present the "work" required himself rather than asking the questioner to "do the work" involved to prove the hypothesis which the author of the same advanced.
Lastly, given that the focused enslavement of African people by Europeans as well as the legal structure underpinning the same (e.g. de las Casas and the Pope) predates 1676, it would be further logical to posit that Racism/White Supremacy predates 1676.
"In a year's time we may say the same things, but you will not wait during this year in the hope that roast pigeons will fly into your mouth. You will work, and your understanding will change--you will be more 'initiated'. It is impossible to give a man anything that could become his inalienable property without work on his part. Such an initiation cannot exist, but unfortunately people often think so. There is only 'self-initiation.' One can show and direct, but not 'initiate.'"
-- Gurdjieff, "Views from the Real World", p. 28
Well, Nulan.
I had been wondering where you got that Dopamine bullshyt from. The fact that you lifted that stuff verbatim from Alan Carter, white boy cult-nut extraordinaire without giving him credit is bad enough.
But passing that nut-job's stuff off as your own and supposedly of any use to black folk, when in effect you ain't nothing but the token negro in a white de facto cult ain't exactly honest.
Lyndon LaRouche redux.
tsk, tsk, tsk...,
The truth of the matter is that I've always linked back to reciprocality - particularly when referring your addled ass to the phenomenon of the "ghost not" with which you are specifically afflicted.
Not that anything you write matters a damn MF, but if you look at the credits given under the table of contents on the site, I am the "maestro" referenced in those credits.
You're such a pathetic and impotent parasite and dumbass Fisher - with nothing whatsoever to show for your "efforts in life" - it simply boggles the imagination how you even manage to live.
While I'm on it though - maybe I get it from Dan F. Umanoff, M.D
Maybe I get it from William Pensinger who definitely introduced me to the terms "normotic illness" and the "monoculture".
Maybe I get it from Fr. John Romanides whose eye-opening scholarship is even more magical than my own - and in whose writings I encountered the phenomenon again as neurobiological sickness.
The fundamental and indisputable difference between you and I MF - IS THAT I GET IT! - and by that fact am consequently empowered to do something about it.
Whereas you simply marinate in the rancid byproducts of your own narcissistic stupidity....,
cnulan said...
"In a year's time we may say the same things, but you will not wait during this year in the hope that roast pigeons will fly into your mouth. You will work, and your understanding will change--you will be more 'initiated'. It is impossible to give a man anything that could become his inalienable property without work on his part. Such an initiation cannot exist, but unfortunately people often think so. There is only 'self-initiation.' One can show and direct, but not 'initiate.'"
-- Gurdjieff, "Views from the Real World", p. 28
Come one man. WTF has that got to do with any thing ?
Gurdjieff was an interesting partially enlightened con man.
It is a fun and entertaining diversionary read.
What kind of putdown artist and egoistic blather generator are you always doing ?
Making flaming arguments on the internet is like running a race in the special olympics. You may win but you are still retarded.
That goes for both of ya.
Skip, clearly you're not appreciating the immense utility and profit that accrues to me from harmlessly dumping my own dopamine byproducts - which tend toward behavioral manifestation as threat/contempt displays - on digital pinatas.
It would be most costly and counterproductive for me to allow any of this berserker fury to manifest interpersonally or locally. (^;
Come one man. WTF has that got to do with any thing ?
Gurdjieff was an interesting partially enlightened con man.
It is a fun and entertaining diversionary read.
Sorry Skip, having never participated in a working group, plainly no one ever taught you how to use All and Everything.
Having not personally invested the effort required to decipher it for yourself, (which would be a mind-boggling level of effort requiring command of multiple languages and lots of esoteric scholarship - and quite a lot of luck) you're dismissing something whose content you couldn't even guess at.
It's a puzzle Skip. It requires "tricks" on the part of the reader to make it pop - like those optical illusions that relied on defocusing your gaze so that you could see the 3 dimensional image embedded in a two dimensional haze.
Now I know that you'll squirm and chafe and vehemently disagree with what I've written here. You'll get pissed and hoist yourself up by your own petard for a few rounds of pinata smacking with CNu - but instead of that boring and unproductive infinite recursion - why not instead take a look at what not so old old-heads dropped last year to nearly universal recrimination from within the work.
There now, a freshly roasted pigeon effortlessly flown into your mouth. It won't substitute for the honest work you'd need to do in order to develop your own psychological faculties, but it should settle once and for all the nature of what's going on in All and Everything, and by extension, in most all genuine scriptural works...,
"Skip, clearly you're not appreciating the immense utility and profit that accrues to me from harmlessly dumping my own dopamine byproducts - which tend toward behavioral manifestation as threat/contempt displays - on digital pinatas."
Ok. I understand that, but it seems like a waste of time.
As far as Gurdjieff, I was involved, and in a group many years ago, and I know all of that material backwards and forwards.
While it is an interesting stop gap bit of knowledge, and no doubt mind boggling and experience shifting to know and understand about him and his ideas, it is never the less rather redundant at this juncture of culture.
As an intellectual exercise it can be fun.
Think about creating real change as a social activist.
Gurdjieff stuff is all based on cabal like belief and his personality.
The information he had has been put out more clearly, since he put out Beezelbub which I have read three times, at different stages of life.
You understand ?
There is MORE interesting stuff out there now.
The whole concept of 'work' is a non starter really.
I am telling you this because I know more than you know about this topic.
rotflmbao....,
Prove it.
Tell everybody here exactly what Beelzebub's Tales represents?
and for the record - I AM a social activist and have been for a number of years now. my area of emphasis is the introduction of open source tools, technologies, and culture to under served children who might otherwise never know these exist.
What type of work do you do Skip?
Googling's not gonna get you out of this one Skip - spit it out.
Show us what you're working with.
giving and teaching technology to kids is social activism now days?
i agree it's helpful, i just didn't know it was social activism. i guess with the one laptop per child movement and the malaria mosquito net movement, charity and giving basic instruction now fits into the category of social activist.
you don't just loan some software onto their computer, give them a manual and tell them you can't initiate their desire to learn how to use it in a functional relative manner, and then leave, do you?
i have a theory that people nowadays are overusing the term social activist.
so you're a pioneer who is ahead of the curve. ok. gotchu.
so once black folks have done the kind of work you've done then we'll have our thinking "corrected" which will allow us to then make progress?
how can you assume that i or my community does not want something different than what it has right now?
i see that desire (for something different) regularly.
you thinking that it's a matter of being induced to want something different is paternalistic and arrogant.
i actually DO presuppose that i am useful to you. i suppose you are useful to me too! i got love for you and came across your interesting theory. and would like you to help me understand it better. but instead you send me off to read a few papers even more complex then your theory/statement/paragraph.
i'll bookmark the pages and read em. maybe this weekend. maybe next monday in our weekly community study group in bedstuy, where people who are on all different levels of "consciousness" come together, to try and work towards the vision of a "collective community consciousness".
because, i repeat, your PHILOSOPHY (not you my brother) is useless to me unless you can help someone like me actually understand it.
it's paternalistic to sit on high and have faith in people's ability to get it on their own terms. like sitting back watching a mouse in a maze, having proud faith that he'll get thru it. what could empower our community is for folks like you to come down from on high and help break your theories down.
question: do you think you're harming folks or doing a disfavor by "breaking something down?"
just because you understand your theory better than those to whom it doesn't belong doesn't mean you're more intelligent than anyone.
what it means is that you have some understanding that someone else may not have. and in order to impart that understanding you sometimes need to break it down, like i might do for a friend who's never gone fishing, or skiing, or hunting, etc.
what, i'm supposed to give them a book on skiing and push them down the hill?
could do that. i have a similar faith that they would learn eventually. i think eventually with or without your help i can better understand your theory/logic. wow, but wouldn't it be nice if you were able to actually communicate it effectively to me without passing me off to the resources that helped you form the theory in the first place.
regardless of who it was, hitler, krupp, daimler, the german consciousness/culture/nation... what i'm trying to get at is what is the "cognitive error" and the "instinct" you speak of.
if it's in the links, i'll get to it, so thanks, but i assumed you'd be able to define the terms you use in your own words.
there is one search result when looking for ["dopamine hypoism"] and there are a bunch of obscure websites that come up when you search for ["hyposim"] guess i'll have to wait to read the paper you passed me off to instead, to understand this.
on the burden of proof. i'm just asking for clarification. you're the one who used bacon's rebellion to try and make a point my man... i'm just trying to call you on the fact that it doesn't hold up as a valid example or reference. so i would think if you want to continue using that slave law as a reference point the burden of proof is on you to prove that poor whites like bacon didn't adhere to the same philosophical/religious "law" that the elite whites did. otherwise there is probable cause that he/they did. which leaves room for the equal possibility that the solidarity between the poor blacks/whites is a moot point because it was rooted in the same philosophical/religious "law" that the elites adhered to.
i'm not asking you to prove a white supremacy system wrong, i'm asking you to prove that your point of reference in bacons rebellion actually holds up to further inspection.
lastly, you're asking me about what now? if i think that governing Black folks is a major/large concern or "the lion's share" of the challenge of governing, in this nation, or world?
so to clarify you're basically asking me do i think that white folks actually spend huge chunks of energy worrying about how to govern black folk?
question: do you think you're harming folks or doing a disfavor by "breaking something down?"
absolutely.
as far as I'm concerned, you should have found these dots and connected them on your own.
besides which, you're not being prompted to do anything beyond a little reading Achali. if you can't work that show by yourself, then the utility kwestin is moot, isn't it?
just because you understand your theory better than those to whom it doesn't belong doesn't mean you're more intelligent than anyone.
what it means is that you have some understanding that someone else may not have.
two things;
1. This is an ancient and recurring description of how the human psychological and cultural world works. Many people have found it on their own, but described it in terms far less accessible than these.
2. By bringing it forward and out of the constraints of esoteric language and presentation, and, by identifying a likely psycho-physiological mechanism underlying its operation - I'VE ALREADY BROKEN IT WAAAAAAY THE PHUK DOWN!!!! and in the process made it subject to empirical testing and verification by others.
That said - please go and read a little over the holidays and come at me with questions evidencing some effort on your part or don't come at me at all, aight?
i ain't coming at you brother. calm down. i'll check out the readings when i have the time. thanks for them.
Achali, don't waste your time. This Dopamine hegemony ain't nothing else but another racialist/fascist projection of a prurient LaRouche-type mind.
Basically these folks stipulate that humanity is divided genetically into folks who "by "genetic luck" lack a dopamine rreceptor and thus are able to tthink creatively and clearly and are "awake" and the rest of us who are Dopamine doped-up and "asleep" and who "act stupid".
It's a circular and self-reinforcing argument. It also is racist to the nth degree as even the creator of this cult, (and it is a bona fide cult with all the usual unifying verbal constructs and uses germane to such cults) Alan G. Carter had to contend with.
It is easy to figure out what the inevitable ramifications of this "theory" are: the "necessary" rule of the "rational" folks over the "irrational" folks like moi and toi.
Actually, come to think of it, Carter probably stole this thing from a German pulp fiction science fiction series that's been running for over 40 years since 1961 called "Perry Rhodan, the Savior Of The Universe".
There's a long cycle of about a hundred or so booklets in this series that describes humanity as having succumbed to something called Aphilie in which all of humanity's emotional "dopaminic type" thinking has been eradicated. I think that cycle of booklets ran sometime in the late 1970's or early 1980s.
Alan Carter, being a Brit, might have had access to that series.
In any case, that stuff ain't nothing new.
Like I said,waste of time.
Feeding around the edges being a social reformer within the context of this system is a dead end.
This system can not reform.
Energy Accounting eliminates both the basis and the need of all social work and charity. It would reduce crime to but a small fraction of what exists today.
If you don't like the war, the poverty, the misery, the waste, the crime, the disease, and the corruption which the Price System spawns, why do you stick with it ?
why do you stick with it ?
What else is a packer capable of doing?
p.s. - don't forget to demonstrate your peerless command of All and Everything.
WOW!
DV,
I been away for a while and when I come back to visit you blog Fisher is taking to you on your home court/field. Let the NY Jet blowing out the NE Patriots in Gillette Stadium this year *it just does happen like that*. Surprised the hell out of me to say the lest!
You must of went overboard at the company Christmas party with the eggnog. Or maybe your losing a step like Shaq? I don't know but from casually reading your blog in the pass I have never witnessed you catch-wreck from Fisher, and not fight back with fire!
Here are some of the comments that got me thinking you were going to come back with fire!
Fisher said: "And who worships light-skinned women, having practiced what he preached and produced at least one child who looks as far removed from himself, skin-tone-wise, as possible."
Bingo.
Color-Struck.
As most black children cute child, though. If this is your daughter, I'm sure she comes after her mother rather than the blackest man in America.
Did you know that because of her light skin she has a higher chance of survival than black children with dark skin?
Color ain't skin deep, ya know.
-------------------------------
Everybody has an off day, I guess today is yours!
I like the commentary amongst the key players in this thread. That means all except Skip! Did he tell someone to "F" their grandmother! Dude is a straight "Buster" for that comment.
DV is out on injured reserve though he will be back in action soon.
Be Well,
Soulijah Story
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