Intellectual Insurgent said... DV, I've been pondering this argument all day and it is finally apparent to me why it doesn't sit well for me. It suffers from the same intellectual fallacy as apologists for slavery make. "Well, slavery existed in Africa before the Europeans showed up and, therefore, we didn't cause the problem." True, just like the European slave traders, vulgar rap didn't "cause" the problem of degradation and demeaning of women. It just took an already bad situation, added its unique stamp to it and showed that they could be 100x worse than those before them. Snoop is to the church of secular liberalism what Europeans were to the institution of slavery.
I see your point Dina. My position on Hip Hop certainly includes, but is not limited to the rejection of the notion that Hip Hop is the “cause” of societal blight. However, equally important to my argument is the disingenuous and hypocritical attack on the art form by a group of people whose own house is not in order. I have coined the term “Post Civil Rights Negro” to describe the myopic and ineffective leadership of the African-American middle class. On whose watch we have witnessed the implosion of the African-American family, the complete capitulation of any real political power and massive economic potential reduced to pathological conspicuous consumption.I celebrate Hip Hop because I see it as a desperate attempt at self-expression in an increasingly Orwellian world. The Corporate Negros and Post-Civil Rights Negros have so completely succumbed to the pressure to conform they hate black men who reject the values of a system into which they have bought.
22 comments:
You may not buy the distinction, but I differentiate vulgar rap from real hip hop. There is no way you can put Dead Presidents, The Roots or Talib Kweli in the same family as a piece of shit like Snoop.
With that distinction, I agree that HIP HOP is and always has been an attempt at self-expression in an increasingly Orwellian world. To the contrary, however, RAP music and the criminals who peddle that poison have completely succumbed to the same system that the Post-Civil Rights Negroes so desperately cling to for validation. Snoop and his filthy ilk are doin' just as much steppin' and fetchin' as Harold Ford Jr.
Snoop and his filthy ilk are doin' just as much steppin' and fetchin' as Harold Ford Jr.
Nahhh ...
Let's be honest. The Roots, Talib, Dead Presidents - all good music, but comparatively benign. Which is why they have limited appeal.
They will never "take a phrase that's rarely heard, flip it, and make it a daily word".
Snoop and Harold Ford are for all intents and purposes - entertainers.
Without the Democratic machine behind him Harold Ford couldn't get enough people together to fill up a phone booth.
Snoop has packed stadiums from Long Beach to Luxembourg. Why? Nah, Mike Fisher, it's not just because he has been "selected" by Jew distributors.
Were that the case PM Dawn would be releasing their 10th album instead of Snoop.
Like all great poets, Snoop manages to touch a part of people's souls.
Now, that, I got me some Seagram's gin
Everybody got they cups, but they ain't chipped in
Now this types of shit, happens all the time
You got to get yours but fool I gotta get mine
Everything is fine when you listenin to the D-O-G
I got the cultivating music that be captivating he
who listens, to the words that I speak
As I take me a drink to the middle of the street
and get to mackin to this bitch named Sadie (Sadie?)
She used to be the homeboy's lady (Oh, that bitch)
Eighty degrees, when I tell that bitch please
Raise up off these N-U-T's, cause you gets none of these
At ease, as I mob with the Dogg Pound, feel the breeze
beeeitch, I'm just Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice - Laid back [with my mind on my money and my money on my mind]
If either one of your sons unfolded into a man who looks, acts and behaves in the way that this song in particular and must of popular hip hp in general portrays men, which part of you would feel the most singed?
DV's got a point yall. Long Beach to Luxomburg is right. As I read his post, I sang EVERY WORD of that verse. If I'm singing it (JD, business suit, job) imagine the appeal by young people with less seperating them from what Snoop is rappin about.
Which is why he might take more care regarding the things he says/promotes, Robyn.
We are not necessarily concerned with the grown women with JDs and business suits et al. I am mainly thinking of the young boy or girl with nothing but the thrum of the beat and the perspective of a snoop dog to light their way. It doesn't seem like a promising elixir.
Jasai - "Shark Tail" is a greater threat to 10 year old boy than the "Chronic".
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stop.
I am not sure what values anyone who supports Snoop Dogg are so interested to transfer to their own sons and daughters. I hear the argument that there is some teachings and morals that Snoop and his genre pass on that improve our race/society. So what.. if he sells out stadiums. Have you surveyed the individuals who attend. Do you know their disposition to drugs,sex & violence. Are those attending possibly the next Cho Seung-Hui or Harry George Belafonte, Jr. The only place Snoop's music will get you if you live it is jail. Frankly to compare a person of color who decided to become educated and stay away from the gansta life versus someone like Snoop is very dangerous. I will take 10 well spoken brothas with banking, medical and law degrees over 10 gun carrying, pot smoking, bagging jean wearing, flossed out, bitch calling, negros with a banging beat any day of the week.
Anon
1 will take 1 gun carrying, pot smoking, baggy jean wearing producer / distributor non-conformist over 10 well spoken conformist consumer corporate plantation negro, glorified slaves any day of the week.
Snoop can no more guarantee the fidelity of the people in his audience than can the President of Virginia Tech guarantee the fidelity of the students on his campus.
I'd take one brother who calls a bitch a bitch over 10 brothers who act like bitches any day of the week.
Black Americans will do much better when our middle class drops it's Messiah complex and stops expecting every brother who manages to reach any position of prominence to be a paragon of virtue.
Snoop is not The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He is a former gang member and drug dealer who has gotten rich selling his story to middle class conformists willing to pay for a vicarious taste of nonconformity.
Good for him.
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DV Said...
1 will take 1 gun carrying, pot smoking, baggy jean wearing producer / distributor non-conformist over 10 well spoken conformist consumer corporate plantation negro, glorified slaves any day of the week.
Anon Said...
Not sure how you determine most corporate empoyee's values.. But I respect your opinion.
DV Said...
Snoop can no more guarantee the fidelity of the people in his audience than can the President of Virginia Tech guarantee the fidelity of the students on his campus.
Anon Said...
If this is to imply that there has never been a shooting and death at a Snoop concert... Then research a little more.
DV Said...
I'd take one brother who calls a bitch a bitch over 10 brothers who act like bitches any day of the week.
Anon Said...
All women to Snoop are "bitches" show me once in his lyrics were he calls a woman an woman. Secondly, how does a black man who goes to a hospital each day as a physician and saves lives a act like a bitch?
DV Said...
Black Americans will do much better when our middle class drops it's Messiah complex and stops expecting every brother who manages to reach any position of prominence to be a paragon of virtue.
Anon Said...
I think you assume that most blacks who decide to have a corporate career or who have relatives/friends as such believe this. I would ask what national survey are you getting this from. I don't think you really believe that the masses think that way.
DV Said...
Snoop is not The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He is a former gang member and drug dealer who has gotten rich selling his story to middle class conformists willing to pay for a vicarious taste of nonconformity.
Anon Said...
Snoop is not the former... He is still a gang member and drug dealer check you sources... Who btw is selling "gansta life" which many believe who don't know any better... to be the way that many blacks think and live. That's the danger.
Regards,
Anon
Anonymous,
Who the hell says we must "live" the music we listen to?.... ["The only place Snoop's music will get you if you live it is jail.]....
I like Nelly Furtado but am not promiscuos (Promiscous Girl), I like Fergie but try to call as little attention to my humps as possible (My Humps), I like Bob Marley but dont get high (pick a song).
Further, do you offer the same criticism to Michael Jackson for Billie Jean, whom, according to the song, Michael banged and is later denying the kid is his. Do you contend male Michael fans to be the dead-beat baby daddies of the world today? Sound stupid, but just following your logic.
There certainly are legitimate criticisms of Snoop Dog that dont stem from the bullshit notion that if you listen to a certain type of music you must be living it.
And just to add the whip cream to this debate - here's a funny story illustrating that Snoop, et al. have equal numbers of "lost" and "non-lost" fans.
I was in court a while back in DTLA. I'm doing my thing in the courtroom, turn around to leave after arguing a motion, and who's sitting in the back of the courtroom but DJ QUIK my favorite rapper of all time!!!!!!!!! Since 6th grade. Yep, I had casette tapes with curse words and I still made it.
Quik noticed me, being the only black atty in the room, and I damn sure knew who he was. When he gave me the obligatory black-folks-speak-to-one-another acknowledgement, I walked up on him and proclaimed my damn near 20 year fan hood. I told him dont let the j-o-b get things twisted.
It was great! Stop hatin on rap, everything has its place.
As I've stated before...the problem with negative Hip Hop is young Black American youth are defining their culture by it. It permeates everything that is them. As most hip hod heads would say, "Hip hop is not music...it's a culture."
Robyn...
You make some great points. I would say that shooting/murdering someone is different than making love/sex. Shoot that was Marvin Gaye thang. And hitting a blunt... coming on... I with you. It's the slapping ho's and gang banging I am talking about. See as I see it you all cool with it until your son's and daughter's are living it then it will be a problem. "Keep It Real"! folks.
Regards,
Anon
THANK YOU ALL FOR SUPPORTING MY GANSTA WAYS...
It ain't cheap avoiding the pokey. TMZ has learned that Calvin Broadus (aka Snoop Dogg), is selling his mansion in Claremont, Calif. for an icy $2 million.
The property comes fully loaded, with 8 bedrooms, 5.5 bathrooms and 6,500 square feet of living space. With marble floors, a gourmet chef's kitchen, home theater, recording studio, pool, spa, and a tennis/basketball court, it's everything an indicted rapper could ever hope to unload to pay legal bills.
The sale comes on the heels of DoggFather's various legal issues. As TMZ first reported, Snoop was arrested several times in the last year, including pinches in Los Angeles, Orange County and London. Last week, the multi-arrestee was sentenced to five years of formal probation and 800 hours of community service, resulting from felony gun and marijuana charges.
Regards,
Anon
Cousin Jus,
Your argument hasn't evolved on this issue one iota. You keep saying the same thing without addressing any counterpoints.
No one, including rappers, is advocating calling 3 billion women "bitches".
That doesn't mean bitches don't exist. They do.
That doesn't mean whores don't exist. They do.
Just like asshole men exist. And women never let us forget about it. They shouldn't.
It's simply disingenuous for a pop culture that has across the board reduced the media image of women to Desperate Housewives and Girls Gone Wild to disproportionately blame rap for misogyny.
Quinton Tarrantino can cut a woman's head off in a 2 hour movie and he is the toast of the town. Nelly slides a credit card through a strippers ass and he is a villain.
HELLO. There are women, all over the country, getting dubs pushed up their crotches right now as we speak (mostly by corporate negros and white boys on their lunch breaks)
I applaud anyone who refuses to participate in the hypocrisy by pretending if you don't say it - it doesn't exist.
DV Said...
It's simply disingenuous for a pop culture that has across the board reduced the media image of women to Desperate Housewives and Girls Gone Wild to disproportionately blame rap for misogyny.
Anon Said...
The topic you posted DV was not about GGW or about Desperate Housewives but Snoop's "gangsta" Rap/HipHop. And when I last checked the founder of GGW is/was in jail for some of his GGW content. I can't remember Snoop going to jail for his "gansta" content.
DV Said...
Quinton Tarrantino can cut a woman's head off in a 2 hour movie and he is the toast of the town. Nelly slides a credit card through a strippers ass and he is a villain.
Anon,
Not sure who made Nelly the villian but you should be just as upset with(Cornell Haynes Jr.) AKA Nelly as you would be about the scene in Quinton's movie. I bet you the woman in QT's movie was white and the stripper who's ass Nelly used was black. So for the record which woman do you care about more??
Regards,
Anon
Anon,
Not sure who made Nelly the villian but you should be just as upset with(Cornell Haynes Jr.) AKA Nelly as you would be about the scene in Quinton's movie. I bet you the woman in QT's movie was white and the stripper who's ass Nelly used was black. So for the record which woman do you care about more??
Regards,
Anon
Anon, I like your style. When going to grow up and get a nickname?
If I care about a woman, I don't stop Nelly from sliding a credit card through her ass.
I stop her from making her ass available for a credit card to be slid through it.
If you don't like the word bitches and ho's - address the culture that produces too many bitches and ho's as opposed to taking the easy road of condemning rappers for uttering the words.
As far as the founder of GGW going to jail - So?
There are rappers in jail. There are classical musicians in jail. There are priests in jail. There are cops in jail. There are lawyers in jail. There are corporate negros in jail. The jails are full of "articulate brothas" and even women who have had the misfortune to have been called "bitch".
That proves nothing.
DV,
Women who play the ho roles are guilty as well... but they trying get paid (free-$500) so I understand... The rapper is the icon folks will remember and wish to emulate. He/She can say no... I want to change the images that my people see. So is there a time when you will ever denounce a rapper for the messages/images/disrespect for women who some teenagers/adults may not have the capacity to discern between what's a woman versus a "bitch". Or do you put all blame on the fan. See I am a mentor in the South Bronx. I see the 50Cent, Nelly, Game, Snoop,etc. wannabees all day long. DV guess who becomes the father figure when daddy is not around (which is a different issue)That's right Snoop. But the problem is these kids can't tell the difference between. See Nelly and Snoop are keeping that "gansta" shit real when most rapper have never shot at nobody. Come down here with me and see what's really going down in the streets where it counts. I can tell you don't live in the hood my brotha.
Regards,
Anon
"Snoop has packed stadiums from Long Beach to Luxembourg. Why? Nah, Mike Fisher, it's not just because he has been "selected" by Jew distributors."
Yawn.
DV. Once again you don't know what you're talking about. Me being the cat who sold out these stadiums and arenas in Luxemburg, London (Wembley), Berlin, Paris, Sao Paulo etc., let me tell you what our clintel were spending their ticket money on: Certainly not "poetry", but image, tittilation, and "ooooh, THAT's how black people act!" all undergirded with well-put together beats and music.
S**t, half the time the audience can't hear or understand what the average Gangsta rapper is saying on a live mic anyhow. (Aside from "put ya hands in da air").
So they're absolutely not there for the the poetic ability. They're there for the cheap thrill.
Mike, you sold the tickets?
Bra, you peddle a lot of shit you claim to hate.
How are you any different from the rappers you promote?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
You sure you aint mad at Snoop because LA What's her name flopped?
PS
I like the way you handled that shit in Germany when Dru Hill's van got shot up. Nice touch.
That wasn't Germany, that was Paris, France. Venue was the Zenith. It was just a bunch of French Arab and African gangsta dope dealers who tried to kill Sisqo for some stupid offense they took at Dru's FOI bodyguard.
We had to find them the next day and then had a little talk with them and they apologized.
To show you how glamourous THAT life is, even in France ... the leader of that crew almost to a day a year later ended up with a bullett in his head.
It was a waste of some potentially decent, though a bit temperamental, brothers.
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