Jamaica has been under attack for some time. The government is being pressured via boycotts and negative media campaigns to compel the people of Jamaica to "accept" homosexuality.Unlike the frightened conformists of America, the Jamaicans have drawn a line in the sand and refuse to be intimidated by the gay lobby. They insist their attitudes and opinions are not a product of "homophobia" but a product of their Christian culture.
The Jamaica Observer
"First of all, the global homosexual lobby must be told unequivocally and unapologetically that Jamaica is not a homophobic country - we are a Christian country. The fact that many Jamaicans are bad Christians is a completely different matter altogether. For Jamaicans, the issue of homosexuality is a deeply cultural and spiritual matter.In the eyes of Jamaicans, to say that homosexuality is right, is to say that God is wrong, and that will never happen.
Homosexuality is not merely an issue of a different value system, or issues of "preference" or "choice". It is an issue that strikes at the very core of a belief system that is rooted in the Bible, and one that Jamaicans have valued since time immemorial, and a belief system that defines and calibrates who we are.One of the most effective strategies of the homosexual lobby (with the help of its local agents) is to force you into a corner by saying that if you dislike the behaviour you automatically dislike the person. That's a trick that hasn't worked with me. Some of the nicest, kindest, brightest and most creative people I know are homosexuals, and some of the meanest and most obnoxious human beings I know are heterosexuals, and vice versa. The issue is sin, not sexual orientation, and all of us, both gays and "straights" are guilty in the eyes of God even when we don't even know it. The wonderful thing is that God's grace is sufficient for all of us.
40 comments:
Calling you out man.
You are a bigot.
Like god cares about bullshit.
You are part of the problem.
Skip...I don't see how you can say what DV said is bigotry??
So you consider homosexuality BS? If you believe in the Bible, than you will see that it clearly speaks against homosexuality.
I agree that people often times make homosexuality out to be the worst of the worst sins...meanwhile they are adulterers, murders, liars, theives...sin is sin and there is none above or below - so for that double standard I agree that there is hypocracy. However, why are people an automatic bigot if they are not waving a rainbow flag and agreeing that it is ok?
You do not have to accept a persons actions to deal with a person and you do not have to choose to be around it, if you don't want to be.
skip sievert said...
"Calling you out man. You are a bigot. Like god cares about bullshit. You are part of the problem."
If you are going to call me out Skip - call me out.
I am displaying bigotry towards whom?
I am part of what problem?
Actually, I am going to call you out Skip.
You are a conformist. You have succumbed to the pressures of radical Secular fundamentalism.
The same forces that are shoving "Price Theory" down your throat have convinced you to demonize those courageous enough to actually worship God while elevating practitioners of an aberrant and unhealthy behavior to an exalted group status.
God "care" about "bullshit"?
I don't know.
But nature does. It has consequences for "bullshit".
you think god cares whether someone is gay DV? really?
soteria,
please find the scripture that condems homosexuality. and post it here.
I don't oppose homosexuality because of the Bible, I oppose it because it's nasty and it destablizes society and families. I don't care if a few people want to be nasty off in some section of the city, but I do care when I see massive amounts of brothas sportin' pink coats and fly hair.
6 days 'til Jamaica.
Big J
nasty.
then don't do it.
nasty (and sad).
buffy.
nasty.
sleeping with a woman who is not your wife and then sleeping with the woman who is your wife with no notice.
jasai said...
"you think god cares whether someone is gay DV? really?"
Jasai,
I think "caring" is a human construct.
I don't think God operates on such subjective level.
I think of God as the natural order.
I think there exists consequences for behaving against the natural order.
Be it putting unnatural food in your body and causing cancer ... or two big hairy ass men having anal sex and contracting AIDS.
I think the bible and the other ancient scriptures are guides left by the countless generations of humans who came before us - who learned through trial and error.
Many people have lived by those scriptures for centuries. Who are we to come and force feed our version of morality down their throats?
Particularly when America is going to hell in a hand basket.
I think there exists consequences for behaving against the natural order.
-DV
since this is so you can move on. spend some time on something closer to home. they are already scheduled for the consequences of such actions. i wonder why you feel you need to be the bugle boy on this one.
and again, specifically in the bible point me in the direction of said scripture that condemns this.
And America can not go to hell in a hand basket, people can. People from all over. Maybe we should stop it with the identity politics all around (straight, cartoonishly macho men have a lock on what should be) and worry about our own lives, our own souls. Or at least worry about the lives of people we know and who ask our opinion. This would save a lot of energy.
I think "caring" is a human construct.
-DV
in this way we should try to be more like god and less like the nosy neighbor in the window.
jasai said...
And America can not go to hell in a hand basket, people can. People from all over. Maybe we should stop it with the identity politics all around (straight, cartoonishly macho men have a lock on what should be) and worry about our own lives, our own souls. Or at least worry about the lives of people we know and who ask our opinion. This would save a lot of energy. " Jasai
I don't understand what you mean.
Why is interest in Jamaica's struggle against the gay lobby misplaced energy?
Tourism in Jamaica has been intentionally damaged. Poor people are becoming even more poor?
Why? Because homosexuals in America are practicing ideological colonialism by blackmailing an entire culture.
I don't understand your call to bury our heads in the sand.
Jasai,
My one criticism of Buddhism is that it can lead to the misinterpretation that we are not to act when necessary. Thich Nhat Hhan wasn't waiting for America to leave Vietnam, he fought (spiritually) against it.
Big J
then fight spritually against this.
let me know when you get ready and i will bake cookies but this is pointless and fruitless.
be the cange you want to see since that is ultimately what you can do for sure.
stop judging them and serve them tea or don't be mad when they don't want to come or telltheir friends not to.
you see, you can't make gay people behave differently. not even by "exposing their ideological colonialism."
maybe jamaicans should cater to the christian right. or advertise themselves as a haven for straight couples.
Jus, you make a mistake in thinking that buddhism (and it's various nuances) inform my every thought.
just an FYI
DV -
If Jamaican people need tourism to stay alive, there are bigger problems than their war with the gay lobby. And, if the ultimate concern here is the negative impact on Jamaica's tourism, fix that.
What's that cliche about having the wisdom to change the things we can, to accept the things we cannot and to know the difference?
With all the religious fruit loops in this country, it would not be difficult to convince them that they MUST travel to Jamaica to help save the Christians from persecution from the radical, secularist, feminazi gay lobby. Start talking all that babble about war on Christmas, and they will all buy plane tix instantly.
Jasai,
It's funny that you assume it's "gays who are under attack".
The Homosexual Lobby is attempting to FORCE Jamaica to repeal it's "Buggery Laws" that have been on the books for years.
Failure to do so will result in an international media campaign designed to demonize Jamaica and to discourage people from traveling there.
Economic Blackmail.
The Jamaican people did not wake up this morning and seek to "condemn" and "judge" homosexuals.
They are trying to pay the rent.
"With all the religious fruit loops in this country, it would not be difficult to convince them that they MUST travel to Jamaica to help save the Christians from persecution from the radical, secularist, feminazi gay lobby. Start talking all that babble about war on Christmas, and they will all buy plane tix instantly." Insurgent
OK. Cool. That's 1 idea.
But let's start here, by just illuminating exactly how the Homosexual Lobby (and other Special Interest Groups) operate.
Because the same thing that is happening to Jamaica is happening to us here.
This is part of the overall homogenization of the world and anyone who doesn't bow down to the ideological god will be persecuted and punished. Whether it's acceptance of homosexuality, faux capitalism, democracy or whatever, there is an elite with an agenda to make everyone around the world the same.
What are we going to do about it? And wherein does the solution lie?
What is remarkable to me is that the faux Christians of this country think that ideological colonialism is ok when it's happening to non-Christians, get all righteous and indignant about honor killings, yet cry persecution when the same media overemphasizing honor killings uses happy holidays instead of merry X-mas. They are enforcers of the same ethos.
This isn't about Jamaica. It's about Cuba, Iran, Sudan, Nicaragua.
If Jamaica becomes the ideological Cuba, then it is up to those of us with some will to fight back. Until then, people who otherwise think it's okay to bomb other countries to bring "democracy" should have no objections when gays financially boycott a country to bring "tolerance".
Wow.
Insurgent that was some intelligent shit right there.
Damn.
"If Jamaica becomes the ideological Cuba, then it is up to those of us with some will to fight back." Insurgent
That's gangsta.
Be about it.
Being about it.
Jasai: - Here are the passages that you requested...
Leviticus 18
19You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness. 20You shall not have sexual relations with your kinsman's wife, and defile yourself with her. 21You shall not give any of your offspring to sacrifice them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 22You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23You shall not have sexual relations with any animal and defile yourself with it, nor shall any woman give herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it: it is perversion.
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32They know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die -- yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers-none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have
learned a great deal. As is typical when this question comes up you have quoted Leviticus 18:22 which clearly
states it to be an abomination. End of debate. (After all, all things in the
bible should be taken and followed as the literal law)
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific
laws and how to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing
odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is
in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is,
how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden
by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments
made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that
we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone
them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private
family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
(Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I
am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word
is eternal and unchanging.
Abomination is an English term used to translate the Biblical term תֹּועֵבָה tōʻēḇā or to'ba (noun) or ta'ab (verb).
The term in English signifies that which is exceptionally loathsome, hateful, wicked, or vile. In Biblical terms to'ba does not carry the same sense of exceptionalism as the English term. It simply signifies that which is forbidden or unclean according to the religion.
Linguistically it is therefore close in meaning to the Polynesian term taboo or tapu, signifying that which is forbidden, should be left alone and not touched, or (for some items) brings death by the act of touching.
This article examines the term as it is used in English translations of the Bible, and also the actual senses of the words which are being translated into this term in English.
Analysis of the term
Abomination in the Biblical sense of the word refers to:
Every shepherd was "an abomination" unto the Egyptians (Genesis 46:34). This aversion to shepherds, such as the Hebrews, arose probably from the fact that Upper and Lower Egypt had formerly been held in oppressive subjection by the Hyksos (a tribe of nomad shepherds), who had only recently been expelled, and partly also perhaps from this other fact that the people of Egypt detested the nomadic habits of these wandering shepherds.
Pharaoh was so moved by the fourth plague, that while he refused the demand of Moses, he offered a compromise, granting to the Israelites permission to hold their festival and offer their sacrifices in Egypt. This permission could not be accepted, because Moses said they would have to sacrifice "the abomination of the Egyptians" (Exodus 8:26); i.e., the cow or ox, which all the Egyptians held as sacred and so regarded as sacrilegious to kill.
It comes down to the belief system and the culture of the Jamican people:
No one has the right to ask another to change what they believe to fit into another's belief system. The Jamaican's feel strongly about their beliefs. They are not hiding how they feel or how they view that lifestyle in their culture. They will not take on the beliefs of another to fit or be popular. I personally admire that. Such is life. Sometimes people will NOT like you. The gays will not come to Jamaica. Perhaps Jamaica should reach out to more groups that agree with their beliefs which would include many (not all!) Christians, Muslims, Jews etc.
Now, I do not believe one sin is bigger than the other. I do not have a problem with people who are Gay, however in the same way that they want to be respected, and accepted they too must do the same with folks who do not agree with them. They gotta grow up in the same way that people of color (latino, black, asian etc.) have come to not bat an eye at every day racism they endure. When I encounter this behavior I address it, tell others and take my business else where. Choices are made about what treatment folks will endure daily. No it is not fair. However, it is life. Do I agree with causing them harm? Heck no. Tolerating is just held back aggression and hostility, and right now to try to force the issue will breed serious contempt.
To some, money is not everything. That is clearly the stance of the Jamaican people. The Gay folks need to grow up and accept that. Some folks won't bend just because the binding is getting tighter, they will simply adjust. Grow up.
Nikita
Jasai,
Since you are not a Christian, and perhaps haven't had this explained to you before - thank you for the priveledge of shedding more light on the topic. According to the Bible, God set up a covenant among his chosen people - the sons and daughters of Abraham. Under this covenant, God had a set of requirements for demonstrating yourself as one of God's people. This was also referred to as the Old Testament law). Under this law it was required to make sacrafices to God as penance for wrong doings, sowing for blessings, and showing praise and thanksgiving. They had specific requirements on cleanliness, and ritual that was mandatory if you were to represent to be a believer.
If someone were to have sinned and were seeking forgiveness they would have to follow a set of rituals that included animal sacrafices in order to be 'forgiven' in the sight of the Lord.
A new covenant was formed with God's people through Jesus Christ. Through the sacrafice of Jesus through his death, God created a new covenant with His people stating that whoever believes in Christ is forgiven. We are made clean through our faith in Jesus. Therefore it is no longer necessary to sacrafice animals and the like, because of the sacrafice of Jesus. All of your bible references regarding sacrafice, etc that you listed above were pulled from Old Testament scriptures (law of Abraham), as Christians we live under the new covenant which is formed through Jesus. That is why a lot of Christians do not study the Old Testament and strictly focus on the revelation described in the New Testament.
In terms of the scriptures that I quoted above in regards to homosexuality, Leviticus is the only Old Testament scripture, the rest are from the New Testament - the New Law.
You are absolutely right in your determination of the definition of abomination as described in Leviticus 18, homosexuality is considered that which is unclean according to religion and in this case that religion or (belief for those of you who are phobic of the word religion) is Christianity. Under the new law under Christ we are all forgiven for our sins through our belief in Him, however that does not mean that we will not suffer God's judgement for our acts, should we refuse to turn away from sin.
In a scripture I cannot find right now, Jesus chastised the Pharisees for challenging him on not following the rituals and customs in regards to sacrafices and associating with tax collectors and prostitutes.
In Matthew 22:34-36 it says:
The Greatest Commandment
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The problem that a lot of people make when pointing the finger at others is that we are not doing what Jesus commanded and that is to love your brother as you love yourself. I do not stand in front of my homosexual brothers and sisters and condemn them in I am right, you are wrong, holier than than thou fashion...God gives us all the freedom of choice...and we can choose to do whatever we want. Walking outside of the laws of God's universe has consequences and we open ourselves up to suffer these consequences when we refuse to walk in God's path.
God still loves us, and we are forgiven when we commit misdeeds...but unless we turn away from our sinful acts we will experience God's judgement in that area of our life...
Likewise I commend the people of Jamaica who stand firm in their beliefs in God's law as it relates to homosexuality and not bowing down to the pressure that society is trying to put on us to say that it is perfectly fine and good...
jasai said...
jasai. You are great.
I love you.
soteria,
thanks for expounding.
FYI...i have done more church than most people on this blog GUARANTEED. Born and bred in it. Can pull scripture out my a$$.
None of your NT scriptures mentions homosexuality. none.
but thanks again.
and like you said the fact of it being an abomination is religious having nothing to do with the god of the breeze and trees. nothing.
and i ain't mad at people who shun it but tell the truth and shame the devil, that is religious dogma and preference. not spiritual law.
Jasai,
That was absolutely brilliant.
Maybe some of the best I've ever read.
I completely disagree with your interpretation of scripture and the application of spiritual law.
But, that was officially wonderful.
Jasai,
I dont know how you can say that none of my references speak of homosexuals... Sodomites= homosexuals (as I am sure you are aware)
FYI, Romans and I Corinthians are in the NEW TESTAMENT. And BOTH. BOTH mention homosexuality. Read it again...
Also, as we all know, going to church does not guarantee understanding. If you are not being truly taught and not actively thirsting to understand, you will miss a lot of what Christianity is about. Pullin a 'scripture out your ass' does not make you one with spiritual discernment...as is demonstrated by some of your comments. Actually reading your comments made me want to repost Romans 1 because I think it speaks a lot to some of the statements that you made...I added my own commentary...
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth.(THAT WOULD BE THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN TAUGHT GOD, KNOW GOD, AND REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE GOD) 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. (WHEN YOU DON'T HONOR OR ACKNOWLEDGE GOD YOUR SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND DISCERNMENT IS DARKENED) 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God (God's word) for a lie and worshiped and served the creature(SATAN) rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions.(ONCE A PERSON DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE GOD, THEY BEOME DISCONNECTED FROM HIS WILL FOR THEIR LIFE) Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another.(HOMOSEXUALITY!) Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (DUE PENALTY...??)
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32They know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die -- yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.
(THE JAMAICANS HAVE IT RIGHT...)
By the way, I agree that gay folks should not be shitting on Jamaica. They should just take their greenbacks and lounge elsewhere. You win some and you lose some.
FYI Soteria, Sodomites are a people (I was sure you would know) from Sodom. The word sodomy is now associated with gay male sex because that is supposedly what they were doing (or maybe they absolutely were doing it) but it was not a bad word before somebody came in and made it a bad word. Before that it was simply the name of people from that hood.
This is why reading (and more than the bible) helps in these kinds of discussions. I can see why the church only promotes one “official text.” It keeps people ignorant. No offense. That was just the correct word to describe it.
You are absolutely right Jasai. The church promotes only one official text (subject to mistranslation) but also promotes one interpretation of that text, which is also misleading.
This whole nonsense about a new covenant in the New Testament is a classic example. The argument requires a religious follower to say, oops, God changed his mind, and we no longer need to circumcise our kids, refrain from cutting the hair at the temples and keeping kosher. This notion of the new covenant essentially makes God a liar or, to be kind, a flip flopper. It's absurd but, then again, so is any attempt to make literal sense out of fables.
Jasai,
Believe me I know who the Sodomites were...they were a group of heathens that were engaging in rampant homo sexualn behavior...
Your tone is so arrogant and disrespectful to those with differing views...most of the time...whatever your belief system is, you are not giving a good testimonial of love...
Intellectual insurgent READ THE BIBLE. It's in there!!!
And believe me, if you were to come to my house I have books on Scientology, Religious Science, Science of Mind, Buddhism, and Islam...I'm not new to this...and I am FAR from a blind sheep.
:)
Sure it's in there, which only diminishes its credibility further.
I am most certainly not trying to be disrespectful. not even dismissive although I know it can seem that way.
again, I have seen a heard it all when it comes to most religions. What I know is that god resonates in my soul. I came here equipped with that mechanism. I am not afraid to sit and hear from heaven. And I don’t’ need any outside confirmation. If something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I don’t need pastor john or king james to say “hey Jasai, that’s a duck.”
I am made in the image and likeness of god. He speaks directly to me. And I am directly accountable for what I do and don’t do in relationship to what I hear. No middle man need apply.
Not even my mama agrees with that but that’s what makes her julia and me jasai.
Wow, I am going to gracefully leave this space.
I have gotten involved in a rats nest of belief system flunky`s.
Except for jasai.
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